Author Topic: Idea: Formation flying (Read 1415 times)

Fariz · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2004, 02:38:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What you're proposing trades nothing. There is no disincentive to using the formation autopilot, and in fact those who use it enjoy both easier functionality and better performance due to enhanced situational awareness.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Todd, I understand what you are saying. But IMHO you mess 2 kind of helpers, in-battler and off-battle ones. The in-battle shall have a tradeoffs, and I will hate myself if they will make combat trim the mandatory helper. But there are off-battle helpers in game also already. They are autopilots: auto-level, auto-angle, auto-climb. They also give you some advantages for no tradeoffs. And yet everyone uses it.

My point is not to make this game further from reality (as a gamer I prefer realistic games), but closer to it. For example, in a real finger 4 even when checking 6 you could control your position in formation by having your leader in pereferical zone of your vision. In AH you shall constantly switch view buttons, and you are more obsessed by staying in formation than looking around. In my understanding having this feature will make situation in game more realistic, not less. And as I said, it will be offbattle helper, along with those we have already.

Delirium · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2004, 02:57:43 AM »

I do and don't like it... I would like to see it in scenarios for better control and design of buff boxes. Currently, they have to turn off friendly fire because the B17s warp slightly and it would be complete carnage.

For MA or fighters? Why? If the leader throttles down its not that hard to stay close. Sounds far too 'gamey' to me, not to mention the current buff formations still have control issues where the drones end up flying at odd, ever changing angles. Last thing we need is fighters doing the same...

Citabria · « **Reply #17 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:04:18 AM »

id give anything to have a formation autopilot, get a huge buff box going and have all the noobs hit autopilot so they can man their guns instead of flying in formation badly

Fariz · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:05:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Delirium
For MA or fighters? Why? If the leader throttles down its not that hard to stay close. Sounds far too 'gamey' to me, not to mention the current buff formations still have control issues where the drones end up flying at odd, ever changing angles. Last thing we need is fighters doing the same...

Shall not happen. Right now formation drones are autopiloted from the server, that is why some anomalities. Formation autopilot if implemented is clint side, it just will use AI for plane position instead of joystick input, while client-server message flow will be the same.

Batz · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:07:49 AM »

Most people saying no fly in the main only. This "formation" idea offers no great "SA advantage" then 2 or 3 guys in close proximity on auto climb communicating over AH voice.

However, in scenarios and events where you have 12 - 20 guys in a flight with reduced icons then something like what Fariz suggests would be great. Most of the time these large groups split into 2 or 4 man flights. Maintaining spacing and contact in a structured environment is important. Guys who fall behind and drift away have to make constant adjustments because of the lack of peripheral vision. It doesn't take "skillz" to make the adjustments its just added workload.

When Fariz is talking about a "formation" I don't think he means 5 or 6 guys in a gaggle like what some fly in the main. Its not like 1 guy would have control over the entire group of fighters like the bomber drones. All it would do is keep the correct spacing while in level flight.

Citabria · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:08:24 AM »

it would be an fe controlled thing if anything only between two players. and all you would need is the fe tracking 1 players position and staying in formation with that player the way drones do.

it wouldnt affect host resources this way.

id love to see formations in AH

we dont see them even in scenarios

you could have simple 5 point position command

hold position left, right, left rear, right rear, rear.

Citabria · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:10:50 AM »

so the player could select who to follow and the leader could be selected by the player following.

Citabria · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:12:32 AM »

but then how do you impliment this?

what ai coding would be necessary to achieve this?

would it work like fleets? where there is a carrier and the little ships maintain position around it? somthing simple and straightforward would be nice

Fariz · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:19:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Citabria
id give anything to have a formation autopilot, get a huge buff box going and have all the noobs hit autopilot so they can man their guns instead of flying in formation badly

Again, I am not talking about buffs. Buffs will be in a box this way or another when AH2:TOD is ready, because most buffs will be AI. HTC probably also considering adding a formation autopilot for humanly controlled buffs in such boxes, because other way it will be easy to find out which buffs in a box are controlled by humans and which by AI, and it will be exploited.

My concern are fighters.

Batz · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:23:49 AM »

Like padlock you just, cycle through and hi lite the guy you want to maintain formation with and click a button (like alt z or something) and you maintain a given spacing. For instance you stay about 500yrds from the guy you are locked to on your fe.

To keep it simple a line abreast formation would go like this:

Player 2 locks to Player 1; Player 3 to Player 2; Player 4 to Player 3 etc... Then if 1 breaks the rest stay in formation.

To get more complicated you could have a group lock to 1 guy who is the "lead" and this lead could have a few dot commands to change fromation type. .formation finger4; .formation eschelon left etc...

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:58:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
Most people saying no fly in the main only.

I fly plenty of Friday night squad ops with the Shillelagh squadron, thanks. And I still say that it's an unbalancing idea... everyone will use it and there will be absolutely no benefit to not using it. Is it really that hard to match manifold pressure and auto-climb speeds once a group gets into formation? I've never had any problems with it in seven years of scenarios and various other "realistic" non-MA settings.

Maybe it would function best as an arena-configurable setting so that it can only be used in scenarios. Something about hundreds of absolutely perfect formations in such an environment rubs me wrong though.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Batz · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2004, 04:26:54 AM »

If everyone uses it how is it "unbalancing"?

How is it more unbalancing then 3 guys flying together "loosely" communicating over squad vox?

It simply reduces workload like auto climb/level/speed does now. It’s not a matter of adjusting mp. The group can match speed by typing .speed xxx.

The lack of peripheral vision makes true formation flying more difficult. All the “formation” would do is allow a unit to maintain a more orderly spacing instead of the gaggles of planes typically seen. It may improve the individuals SA by reducing his workload but the group itself has no better SA then anyone of the auto climb/level gaggles. We have 360 Linda Blair in AH, there aren’t many blind spots that would require specific types of formations. 4 guys spaced 500yrds apart in formation won’t see anymore then the 4 guys on auto climb spaced loosely.

Quote

I fly plenty of Friday night squad ops with the Shillelagh squadron, thanks.

Well good for you. What I said was "most people". You made the choice to include yourself in that generalization. My reply wasn't specifically directed toward you. I flew ToD (now squad ops) from the 1st one until I gave up my “Wotan” account. Only maybe 3 times did I see anything resembling a formation. Most were gangs of aircraft with a few stragglers.

Saintaw · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2004, 04:39:48 AM »

Ohhh I can picture squad nights from here...

Airmess: Guys, we're turning northbound in a second...
Straffo: Not now, I have to stir my choucroute or it will burn! Childern, out of the kitchen, now!!!
Ecke: nein Nein... ich kan nicht Messy, the foam of my beer hasn't settled yet!
Saw: o/t phone! (sounds of tobacco & papers...)
Airguard: I need to finnish this collumn in my newspaper...stand by...
Airmess:

...

PS: I like the idea

1Duke1 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2004, 05:12:23 AM »

One thing....formation flying is not done by using "peripheal" vision. Those hollywood shots of pilots looking straight ahead, or away from the lead for extended periods of time, while maintaining "perfect" form is complete BS. When flying close form, the wingman is looking at his lead's aircraft 90-95% of the time...the other 5-10% are quick quick glances at the gauges, horizon, other wingmen, etc. If you don't, your gonna swap paint, and Look at any closeup photo of aircraft in formation, and you will see the pilots heads all turned towards the aircraft they are flying wing off of....they definitely are not turning to smile at the camera;)

Now if flying in a loose cruise position...yes...you will have a little more time to be looking about, positioning is not as rigid (more fluid), and gives the pilot more time to look for enemy. But the majority of your time you are still flying off the lead, and maintaining your position.

Entering combat, you will be in a combat spread....very fluid, and loose formation, positioning not rigid at all. Here you more eyes all around, rather than padlocking your lead, trying to find the enemy. You still check lead for positioning, but not quite as often....you basically have a piece of sky a few hundred feet above and below leads alt, and a set range (.5-1.0 for ex) from your lead to fly in.

If this was ever implemented, I would'nt use it. Have to agree it is "gamey". There is no "perfect" formation flying unless you are the Blue Angels, and it is a hell of a workload. Majority of form flying *today* is done in loose cruise. Tight form flying is for initial joinups and when getting ready to enter the break at an airfield/CV, or in crappy weather.

I could go on, but I've now been on watch for 12 hours, time to go. Look forward to reading response's later tonight.

Fariz · « **Reply #29 on:** February 01, 2004, 05:48:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1Duke1
One thing....formation flying is not done by using "peripheal" vision.

I can't say how it was in reality. But about field of vision, you can check it yourself easily. Look straight ahead, better at some point on the wall. Move your hands to the sides with 3 fingers up on each hand. Now move them ahead slightly till you will clearly see 3 fingers on each hand. Then measure degree between your hands. You will find out that normal untrained field of a clear vision is between 130-170 degrees, while in games field of vision is around 90. This is where the problem is. That is why in AH scenarios you will see all fighters flying in the messed groups, instead of formations. Trying to stay in historic formation is tiresome and wear out your view hat.

Honestly, I am not trying to find a solution for some abstract problem, I just want to see historic formation in more structured environment, like scenarious or TOD.