Was this God's plan for Carlie?

[beet1e]

We've heard quite a bit from Christians. It would have been interesting to have heard from Jews.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by beet1e
We've heard quite a bit from Christians. It would have been interesting to have heard from Jews.

Chances are a devout Jew would also stand against reasoning that because there is evil in the world and innocents suffer from it there must be no God. Of course, since I'm not Jewish, it's supposition on my part but I'm fairly confident, especially given Hebrew history, that that would be the case. Perhaps one will find this thread and respond.

[Shuckins]

banana,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that, if God exists, and he did nothing to stop Carlie's murder, then he shares some of the guilt for her death.

Well then, WE exist...and WE did nothing to stop the murder.  Are we to assume a share of the guilt for her death?

To take another tack, let me point out that we live in a natural world and are subject to natural laws.  We live and die.  We kill and are killed.  This is the way it has always been.  Why should God change it?  If he attempted to control all of our baser actions people like you would resent him for being an interfering busy-body.

I am convinced that God's main concern is man's spiritual development.  Evil exists because many people have looked upon the Ten Commandments as the Ten Suggestions.  What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" do we not understand?  He has given us all of the guidelines we need to bring evil under control.  I firmly believe that, whether an actual Hell exists or not, we will all be held accountable for the evil that we do.  

As for the doubts that many have about whether or not God exists, I can only offer my own hypothesis, whic I have no way of proving.

Some years back, advances in the sciences of astronomy and physics had indicated that the universe created by the big bang was an open universe, meaning that it would go on endlessly expanding, until even atoms would be unable to remain cohesive, ultimately flying apart, leading to entropy and the universe winking out of existence.  According to the theories of the time, our universe was an accident that would not be repeated.  This gloomy end to the cosmos suggested to some that there could be no all-powerful God.

Our knowledge has continued to grow, however, and our theories to evolve.  Allen Guth's "inflationary theory" of the universe, and variations thereof, as well as newer theoretical models of the creation of the universe, seem to suggest that the big bang is not a singular event.  Guth's theories are almost "universally" accepted these days.  He has stated that the universe sprang into existence from such a tiny point (one billionth the size of an electron) that it was conceivable that the event could have been artificial, that is "created."  

A more recent theory of universal creation is contained in the last issue of Discover magazine.  This theory postulates that the big bang endlessly repeats itself because of the existence of a "shadow universe" that collides with our own, over and over again, creating a new universe each time it does so.

This opens up some interesting possibilities.  If the universe is constantly recreating itself, that means that time has no end.  The life of our universe can then be described as a single drop of water in an endless ocean.  Thus we come to my hypothesis:

1.  Life constantly builds and evolves UPWARD.

2.  Given enough time all things that are possibly, even if only remotely, become probable.

3.  With the passage of enough time, all things that are probable, become iron-clad certainties.

4.  If life constantly builds upward, eventually it may evolve beyond death and evil.

5.  Ergo, I believe God is the ultimate expression of life.  Through his vast experience with the nature of mortal creatures, he has come to the conclusion that it is best to interfere as little as possible in our affairs.

As I said, I can't prove any of this.  However, it makes as much sense as some of the stuff I have heard on these boards.

Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Regards, Shuckins

[MrCoffee]

Originally posted by beet1e
We've heard quite a bit from Christians. It would have been interesting to have heard from Jews.

A reference that binds jews to later christians from the bible before Christ, old testiment. Its a marking point of sorts within biblical history. The implication is there are a nuther group of peoples other than the believers. Its implication seems to have been suggested prior. Thats how I read it.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1] 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven,  whose sins are covered.  8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[2] 9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[3] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."[4] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

To answer the question, I'll use an analogy.

Playing SimCity, I build up a nice piece of land and set it up with great looking rivers, lakes, mountains, forests, and land to build up great cities. The city will grow and grow, I'll make tons of money and my people are really happy and content with their digital lives.

Then one day, I might just decide "hey, I think a pilot's been drinking on the job." and let one fall out of the sky into the city, or the fault line seems to have a lot of pent up energy - I think it needs to be released, or the conditions are ripe for a tornado, or the air has been too dry and a forest fire just happens to spring up.

I'm not religious though, and I've yet to see an example of a loving God - if there is one at all. If there is one, it left us to our own devices so we can slowly destroy ourselves if the natural disasters don't do it by themself.

12 year old girl getting abducted and killed, 5 month old baby in a dumpster and dies, drive by shooting taking out bystanders, full scale war, etc... this **** happens because humans are allowed to act on their own impulses.
-SW

[Eagler]

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
12 year old girl getting abducted and killed, 5 month old baby in a dumpster and dies, drive by shooting taking out bystanders, full scale war, etc... this **** happens because humans are allowed to act on their own impulses.
-SW

exactly - ppl are more worried about their own wants and desires (which many are perverse at on level or another) than about each other - they have turned away from "God" i.e. the concept of Universal Love for each other...

we are selfish beyond words and will continue to suffer as long as a ppl, we are

Peace is there - one has to choose between searching for/wanting it or running to the next "this will make happy" material item/experience

[Rude]

Originally posted by beet1e
banana,

Your initial post indicates that you are confused by tragic events. Some people here have attempted lengthy explanations.

I can be quite brief in my own explanation. Once you accept that there is no God, everything else makes sense.

Very sad....now I understand you Beetle.

[Rude]

Originally posted by SOB
Maybe I read this wrong...turning away from god by not knowing and loving him equates to choosing to do evil?  Or by choosing to do evil, you're turning your back on God?

Our nature is evil SOB....some act without self control...others act in other ways without the same self control...violent or non violent, it's the same beast.

Denying his Son is the back turning.

[Rude]

Originally posted by lord dolf vader
fact remains your got is either not all powerfull or chose to allowed that little girl to be raped to death. her personal god who is always with her allowed her death in this maner.


blaming it on satan, who was created by god anyway makes no sense at all. even if you are a true believer this must occur to you for cryin out loud.

This world is evil...Satan has dominion over it....even you who denies God must acknowledge the decline of love and real compassion on this earth?

God's work for us is done...his Son dies so that we all might have life.

Listening to peoples opinions is not good....I once had real fellowship with God when there was only Otto and God....religion is poison and should be seen as such.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Kieran
No. God's plan is for each and every one of us to spend our lives growing to know and love Him.

In other words, god calls those whom are ready. Maybe Carlie was ready.

[hyena426]

why do people blame god when bad things happen ? we should blame the guy who killed that poor little girl,,wasnt no plan for god to kill her,,it was one messed up guy with free will like us all,,who didnt lisin to his morals

r.i.p carlie,,,its horrible some guy with no care for life had to do this too you,,atleast there was a camera there to see what happend to her,,or we mite of never caught the guy who did this in the first place,,and he may have went on to kill many more:(<~~im happy he was caught,,but im not happy she died

but if it wasnt for that securty camera,,we proubly would of never heard what happend to carlie,,it would of never made the world news,,and none of you would even know who carlie was...there is a little girl in my town been mission for over a year,,she was 6 years old,,i bet none of you have heard her tragic story,,,she never came back from the play ground she was playing at,,but sence it wasnt on camera it never made world wide news,,,hardly made the washington state local news,,,but atleast we can thx some one for that footage, atleast one killer was caught,,bad things happen even to the most faithfull and innocent

[Suave]

Originally posted by Rude
Very sad....now I understand you Beetle.

That fact that you believe mankind evil by nature and a world without supernatural sad and dismal is as revealing about you as your condescencion of those who don't share your Weltbild.

The world is a Rorschach test.

[Kieran]

That fact that you believe mankind evil by nature and a world without supernatural sad and dismal is as revealing about you as your condescencion of those who don't share your Weltbild.

The world is a Rorschach test.

What evidence can you provide to show man is not evil by nature?

Anyway, when it comes to condescending attitudes, it's hard to beat anti-religious viewpoints.

[SOB]

Originally posted by Rude
Our nature is evil SOB....some act without self control...others act in other ways without the same self control...violent or non violent, it's the same beast.

I don't need Jebus or a fear of what might happen to me after I die to know how to act.  If you do, I've got no problem with that, and I wish you happiness.  If you think I'm going to hell for not being a Christian, then I think you're a small individual and you worship a small god.

[SOB]

Originally posted by Kieran
What evidence can you provide to show man is not evil by nature?

Don't you think man has just as much potential for good as for evil?