Author Topic: A world without the US  (Read 7585 times)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2004, 01:29:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
If they did they didn't listen.  Read the history as suggested by Dune.

Holden...without trade the deficit wouldn't grow further, but what would the US do about the existing deficit...renege?

I actually didn't catch the premise of the thead...my bad, but I think Kieran is right...very difficult to withdraw militarily and protect world-wide economic interests.


Did you bother to read my quote? I think it spells out what I was saying pretty succinctly. Read the link here.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2004, 01:31:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
lol  The world's economies are propped up by their strippers and hookers, tending to the perversions of US servicemen...now that is funny.


Perversions?

Why if these strumpets did not tempt these fine honorable young men with the lax morals of corrupt countries where we are trying to bring some modicum of virtue,....
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Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2004, 01:39:37 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
My definition of military support is direct military intervention. That is what we're discussing here; what if the US withdrew its forces around the world. What the US did for Israel is nothing more than what the US did for the UK prior to December 7 1941 when the US was isolationistic.



That was lend lease, in other words loans. We are talking about direct assistance if Israel had to pay us back with interest they would cease to exist and have to become the 52 nd state.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2004, 01:43:13 PM by weaselsan »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2004, 01:44:20 PM »
Gsholz-
Read this again.

Quote
Note, this question concerns only the US ability to project military power, not monetary power. Non-military trade would not be affected directly, rather indirectly by the sudden lack of ubiquitously-present military muscle as potential leverage.


Giving Israel billions in aid that is converted to weaponry most certainly is directly contributing to military aid. I'd also consider it quite the leverage in Palestinian/Israeli "negotiations".

Offline flyingaround

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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2004, 02:18:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran

Israeli military is tough, no question; but they ARE small, and would not survive a conventional all-out war against the Arab world alone.
Once in a while it's okay to admit you are wrong.



And in this point you are quite wrong.  You make it sound like Israel lost the Yom Kippur war.

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Thrown onto the defensive during the first two days of fighting, Israel mobilized its reserves and eventually repulsed the invaders and carried the war deep into Syria and Egypt. The Arab states were swiftly resupplied by sea and air from the Soviet Union, which rejected U.S. efforts to work toward an immediate cease_fire. As a result, the United States belatedly began its own airlift to Israel. Two weeks later, Egypt was saved from a disastrous defeat by the UN Security Council, which had failed to act while the tide was in the Arabs' favor.


YOU made it sound like the U.S. bailed them out, as opposed to the U.N. stepped in and SAVED Egypt!  Political postureing between superpowers in a regional conflict?  Sure.  But from "who was winning that fight" perspective, hands down Israel was winning.  After the first couple of days of scrambling (80% of their military hast to be called up from it's population), the IDF  kicked the snot out of a MUCH larger Arab force.  Like they have time and time again vs. the Arabs who always had numerical superiority.

In the 6 day war, Israel crushed the Arab countries in several stunning victories.

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Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.


It's the HOW they captured all this territory that is so awesome.

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On the morning of June 5, Israel launched a devastating attack on Arab air power, destroying about 300 Egyptian, 50 Syrian, and 20 Jordanian aircraft, mostly on the ground. This action, which virtually eliminated the Arab air forces, was immediately followed by ground invasions into Sinai and the Gaza Strip, Jordan, and finally Syria. Arab ground forces, lacking air support, were routed on all three fronts; by the time the UN-imposed cease-fire took effect in the evening of June 11, the IDF had seized the entire Sinai Peninsula to the east bank of the Suez Canal; the West Bank of Jordan, including East Jerusalem; and the Golan Heights of Syria.


The IDF had proven itself superior to the far larger forces of the combined Arab armies.  

Bottom line, Israel is one tough little country.  They have proven it again and again in the past.  I would worry more about how much of the Arab lands Israel would capture if they felt like it, because the Arabs couldn't stop them.

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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2004, 02:29:01 PM »
I am saying nothing of the sort. Israel has a very tough army, no question; I stated the relationship of the US to Israel, and how important that relationship is to the existance of Israel. I stick to that point.

If the US had not gotten involved, ultimately Israel would have been ground under by Soviet-backed Egypt and Syria- or do you think otherwise?

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2004, 02:31:14 PM »
It would take time, but I believe the Israelis would be able to hold their own with a predominantly indiginous weapons industry. The example of what they did with imported Bradleys points to the fact that they are niether afraid nor incapable of making changes to suit their needs. If it came to a question of survival, they would very likely sacrifice a great deal of civilian comfort to field a fine, home-grown military machine.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2004, 02:34:52 PM by Capt. Pork »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2004, 02:43:37 PM »
BTW, Flyingaround-

Aside from a list of resolutions, what else did the UN do during the Yom Kippur War? ;)

Offline texace

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« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2004, 02:43:55 PM »
Heh...Toad you beat me to it. :D

Offline maslo

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« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2004, 03:21:23 PM »
according to this link im wondering, who does US support in Ukraine
http://www.oecd.org/document/14/0,2340,en_2649_37453_15789006_1_1_1_37453,00.html


anyway im trying to find similary graphs for China, Russia, Germany, UK, Iran

Offline Curval

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« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2004, 03:26:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
I am saying nothing of the sort.


You didn't come right out and "say" anything...what you said was this, in relation to the Arab Israeli war: "Are you suggesting the US didn't throw out warnings to the Arab world to back off? "

To which I replied,"If they did, they didn't listen".

I read your quote..firstly the Seattle Times wouldn't be my first choice on an Arab/Israeli fact finding exercise...and secondly it didn't back up what you were hinting at...that US "warnings" somehow helped Israel.

6 days after the war began the US started to airlift supplies.  This was to help in "the future"...the war was pretty much won during those 6 days...by Israel, not the US.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2004, 03:52:54 PM »
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Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):

As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.(6)

An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:

Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation


After 6 days these jokers were begging for peace. And people wonder why Israel wants to keep the buffer zones won from the Arabs AFTER the Arabs attacked them with the announced goal of wipeing Israel off the map.

And of course, look at what the UN did to protect Israel......they abandoned them.  WTG UN
« Last Edit: February 14, 2004, 03:55:26 PM by NUKE »

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2004, 03:59:48 PM »
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The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions. Still, right before the war, Johnson warned: "Israel will not be alone unless it decides to go alone." Then, when the war began, the State Department announced: "Our position is neutral in thought, word and deed."

Moreover, while the Arabs were falsely accusing the United States of airlifting supplies to Israel, Johnson imposed an arms embargo on the region (France, Israel's other main arms supplier also embargoed arms to Israel).

By contrast, the Soviets were supplying massive amounts of arms to the Arabs. Simultaneously, the armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.


Hardly looks like Israel had much help. [edit] this was the 1967 war [edit]
« Last Edit: February 14, 2004, 04:24:53 PM by NUKE »

Offline Ping

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« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2004, 04:01:05 PM »
World Powers have come and gone. They will continue to do so.
None of us are as indispensable as we would like to think, people or powers.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2004, 04:05:15 PM »
In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent. On May 16, Nasser ordered a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, thus removing the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. On May 22, Egypt announced a blockade of all goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran. Israel had held since 1957 that another Egyptian blockade of the Tiran Straits would justify Israeli military action to maintain free access to the port of Eilat. Syria increased border clashes with Israel along the Golan Heights and mobilized its troops.

Actually, due to these and other threatening actions of Nassar's Egypt, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967.
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