Author Topic: Gay Parenting  (Read 4137 times)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2004, 09:00:38 PM »
All I know is Mr.Black owes me a milkshake for taking the heat off of him for a little while. ;)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2004, 09:19:48 PM »
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2004, 09:32:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Thank you, I rest my case. That's about as credible as "sexual addiction".


As I stated earlier, there is no medical proof. There is simply the possibility.

For me, it's enough that it might not be a matter of choice and that homosexuality isn't contagious.

Live and let live seems like the best course.
sand

Offline osage

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« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2004, 10:12:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
You know another thing the bible calls an abomination right?
Eating shellfish
Yes thats right, according to the bible eating shellfish is right up there with gay marriage.
Better start passing laws banning the eating of shellfish if we are going to make laws banning gay marriage.



Will you marrie me frogman?

JB73 is teh suck.

We can still play GI Joes.

Bibel nevar said anything about that

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2004, 01:25:51 AM »
Spam time.


"1. Neurological Differences.

According to LeVay & Hamer (1994) the medial preoptic region of the hypothalamus which is involved in the regulation of male-typical sexual behaviour is clearly different in homosexual males. This structure contains several nuclei, one of which, the interstitial nucleus (INAH3), is on average bigger in men than women. This nucleus has been found to be 2/3 times smaller in homosexual males - the same size as seen in women. It has also been reported that the anterior commissure in homosexual men is very similar to that of females i.e. larger than that of heterosexual males (Allen & Gorski, 1992).

If this difference is correct then how may it come about? LeVay (1993) points out that this structure in rats (referred to as the medial preoptic nucleus) is highly susceptible to hormonal modification during a critical period of development lasting from a few days before to a few days after birth. Before of after this period altering hormonal levels can induce no changes in size. This indicates that hormonal factors may be important for the development of sexuality. In support, Roselli et al., (2002) studied rams who exhibited exclusive homosexual behaviour and found that analogous regions of the preoptic hypothalamus resembled more closely that of typical females than males.

2. Hormonal Differences.

It was originally assumed that homosexuality resulted from the individual lacking the male hormone testosterone and thereby being influenced by circulating female hormones. So, testosterone supplements were given to homosexuals and while sexual desire was increased, the object of that desire did not change in any way. If fluctuating levels of testosterone do not influence sexual orientation, such preferences must have been established early in development and this could take two forms:


An increase in circulating levels of a hormone during the critical period of sexual differentiation of the brain.


An alteration in the receptivity of certain cells to specific hormones.

Dörner (1976) formulated a "dual mating centre" theory in which he argued that in the rat the medial preoptic nucleus regulated male sexual activity, while the ventromedial nucleus mediated female sexual activity. The morphological differentiation of these nuclei lies under the control of prenatal hormones - if levels of androgens are high then the male centre will develop strongly; if androgens are low then the female centre will predominate. If the female centre predominates in a male individual (due to an early lack of testosterone) then that individual will become homosexual. In a series of experiments on rats, Dörner showed that altering levels of various hormones at the critical times could indeed alter the morphology of these structures and create male ‘homosexual’ rats. However, there are various problems with this theory:


‘Homosexual’ male rats behaved like female rats (i.e. showed lordosis). Human homosexual males behave like males (i.e. take an active role in sex).


‘Homosexual’ female rats could not be created in the same manner. Similar experiments in female monkeys given androgens early in life created an increase in aggression and male-like play fighting, but had little effect on sexuality.


Early manipulation of hormones in animals not only affects sexual activity but also the structure of the genitals. Human homosexuals have gender-appropriate genitalia.

Dörner et al., (1980) proposed that maternal stress is a key factor in the aetiology of male homosexuality. In support he noted that among males born in Germany between 1934 and 1953, an unusually high proportion of homosexuals were born during or immediately after the war (1941-1946). Dörner et al., (1983) also found that 75% of the mothers of homosexuals, compared to 10% of the mothers of heterosexuals were able to recall stressful episodes during pregnancy. However, similar studies failed to find any relationship between prenatal stress and homosexuality (Schmidt & Clement, 1990).

Ward (1984) found that by stressing pregnant female rats, their male offspring showed reduced masculine-typical sexual behaviour and increased female-typical sexual behaviours. These males also demonstrated less-masculinised play behaviours. However, in a large scale longitudinal study of more than 13,000 pregnant women and their offspring Hines et al., (2002) assessed stress both pre- and post-natally and gender role behaviour when the children were aged 3½. While they did find a relationship between maternal stress and female gender role behaviour (more masculine), the effect was small and additional factors (such as maternal education, presence of older brothers) played a bigger role. There was no effect of maternal stress on boys gender role behaviours.

If stress is not the key prenatal event then what else could 'create' homosexuality. In many studies since the late 1980's Blanchard has argued that male sexual orientation correlates with the number of older brothers, each older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by around 33% (Blanchard, 2001). As older sisters has no such effect on sexuality, this effect has been termed the 'fraternal birth-order effect'). This relationship is not influenced by parental age, birth intervals and the number of older brothers or sisters has no effect upon female sexual orientation. This effect has been hypothesised to result from a maternal immune reaction, a reaction which is only provoked by male foetuses, and which increases with every male foetus carried. A likely candidate for this immune response is the H-Y antigen only expressed by male foetuses and triggers the release of antibodies by the mother immune system. When triggered the maternal antibodies interfere with neurological sexual differentiation, the stronger the immune response the greater the chance of abnormal neurological sexual differentiation.

Williams et al., (2000) found that males with more older brothers had a lower 2D:4D ratio (higher testosterone exposure) than males with fewer or no older brothers. However, while Robinson & Manning (2000) confirmed that the digit ratio of homosexual men was lower than that of heterosexual males, they did not find a relationship between fraternal birth order and 2D:4D.

Ellis & Ames (1987) also argued that sexual orientation is determined by the degree to which the nervous system is exposed to testosterone and its metabolite estradiol while sexual differentiation of the brain is occurring. During this organisational phase, testosterone serves to firstly masculinize the genitals and then to masculinize the brain. So human sexual orientation may be determined between the middle of the 2nd month and the end of the 5th month of gestation; overlapping this period and extending by 2-3 more months is the phase during which sex-typical behaviour patterns are organised. Several predictions can be generated from this theory:


Homosexuality should be more common in males: this is supported.


Homosexuals should show demasculinized behaviours: homosexuals often show some male-typical behaviours and some feminised behaviours.


Non-gender typical behaviour should be evident from birth: this is supported.


Homosexuality should be non-randomly distributed along family lines: there is evidence that homosexuality is heritable.


There need not be major differences between circulating hormonal levels in later life: some evidence for and some against.


Attempts to alter sexual orientation after birth should fail: none have yet proved successful."

Con't

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2004, 01:26:41 AM »
"3. Genetic Studies.

Bailey and Pillard (1991) interviewed 115 gay males and their twin brothers (MZ and DZ), and a further 46 gay males with their adopted brothers. They found that 52% of the MZ co-twins, 22% of the DZ co-twins, and 11% of adopted brothers were either homosexual or bisexual. In a later study Bailey et al., (1993) carried out a similar study in female homosexuals and found similar results, i.e. 48% of MZ co-twins, 16% of DZ co-twins, and 6% of adopted sisters were either homosexual or bisexual.



4. Childhood Behaviours.

The connection between early effeminate behaviour in boys and subsequent incidence of homosexuality has been of interest for some time. Studies have typically failed to find consistent differences between homosexual and heterosexual adults in sociocultural factors such as parenting styles, indicating that homosexuality may be inborn and not created. However, most of the studies have been retrospective, and the few prospective studies have used small populations and have been limited to short observation periods. Zuger (1984) carried out a long-term follow-up of 55 boys showing early effeminate behaviour. They were first seen between the ages of 3-14 when they displayed symptoms of effeminate behaviour. The children were seen again approximately 27 years later and were questioned on their sexual preferences. The results were that 73% were homosexual, 6% were heterosexual and 21% were bisexual.

Another study by Green (1985) compared two groups of boys on measures of gender identity in childhood and adolescence. One group consisted of 66 clinically referred boys whose behaviour showed clear signs of gender identity disorder, and 56 boys who were demographically matched. During childhood, extensive data was gathered on the boy's sex-typed behaviours, relationship with other children, and relationships with parents. In adolescence, a sexual orientation score was determined, and 68% of boys in the referred group demonstrated significant homosexual / bisexual orientation, whereas none of the boys in the control group did. These studies indicate that homosexuality is not gradually learned but is present from a very early age.

Why does homosexuality persist?

Genes persist when they improve their owner's ability to reproduce, forming attachments to the same sex would decrease one's chances of reproducing, and we would thus expect that such behaviours would die out over a few generations. Some possible explanations:

1. Some individuals do not become aware (or do not accept) their homosexual orientation until later in life, often following reproduction. According to LeVay (1996) around 67% of female homosexuals have children (similar to that of heterosexual women) but only 27% of homosexual produced children (60% of heterosexual men do so).

2. Does a homosexual gene confer a reproductive benefit on a heterozygous carrier (i.e. who only have one copy of the gene)? Males are disadvantaged in that they have a single copy of the X or Y chromosome, if a single disadvantageous gene is present then it may be sufficient to be fully expressed. Is this why homosexuality is more prevalent in males? For females this is not a problem as a deficient gene carried on the X chromosome will have a ‘good’ version on their other X chromosome. Some researchers have suggested that the sisters of homosexual men have more offspring, or that they may be more physically attractive but this has not been confirmed. Miller (2000) argued that sexual orientation is polygenic and during development these genes alter the sensitivity of the male brain to hormones which shift certain regions in a female direction. Single alleles confer sensitivity, empathy and kindness (traits which females prefer in males) while possessing several alleles would produce homosexuality.

3. McKnight (1997) points out that the basis of our social organisation is co-operation amongst relatives. Theories of the evolution of homosexuality have therefore focused on possible advantages of this behaviour for relatives i.e. by helping one's relatives with raising their children rather than reproduce. However, this kin selection hypothesis is not confirmed as there is no evidence that homosexual’s near relatives have more children, and that homosexuals favour their kin more than heterosexuals.



4. Baker & Bellis (1995) point out that all humans have the capacity for bisexuality and that many children’s first sexual encounters are with their own sex. Homosexual sex provides an opportunity for sexual novices to practise for later heterosexual behaviours. Those who experiment in this way will become more competent heterosexual lovers thereby enabling them to seduce more females and reproduce earlier. "


http://psychology.unn.ac.uk/nick/HBlec04.htm

Offline Silat

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« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2004, 01:48:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Gay marriage isn't simply about gays getting married; it's about normalizing the behavior, making it acceptable to all. To what lengths the gay movement will go to feel satisfied it is mainstream is what concerns me. I see a time where the ACLU or courts tell churches how they have to run in order to be fair to citizens of this country. Outlandish? Maybe not. Examples already exist in our society of government interference in supposed autonomous institutions.


Boy oh boy....I accept that your religious beliefs are mainstream even though I disagree with it. Its is about personal freedom to live life the way you want. Yours and mine. I am happy with you living the religious dream. But you arent happy with others living their dream.
I wonder how you would look at this situation if the positions were reversed.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 01:54:55 AM by Silat »
+Silat
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Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2004, 02:22:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by osage
Will you marrie me frogman?

JB73 is teh suck.

We can still play GI Joes.

Bibel nevar said anything about that



hot

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2004, 06:13:21 AM »
Thrawn, the bulk of that seems to be reducible to "may", "seems", "if", "like", etc. Seems a little short on "is".

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2004, 08:07:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Thrawn, the bulk of that seems to be reducible to "may", "seems", "if", "like", etc. Seems a little short on "is".



Well that's not really surprising, "is" doens't exist in the scientific world, not when it comes to theory.  And the standing theory is just that, the theory with the most valid explanation at the time.

Right now there is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is biologically and genetically drive.  And I have yet to see any biological or genetic evidence that it isn't.  So unless someone comes up some the theory stands...at least within this debate on this board.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 08:13:20 AM by Thrawn »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2004, 09:51:18 AM »
Quote
Well that's not really surprising, "is" doens't exist in the scientific world, not when it comes to theory.


Uh... that's kind of the point I was making. It isn't fact, it's theory. People speak as if it is fact.

Now, now, now... you'd be the first to jump down my throat if I forwarded theory as fact. ;)

Offline Rude

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« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2004, 09:58:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Rude: What world do you live in?
 You're telling me that with a divorce rate of over 50%, the American family is doing just fine?


 Sandman is right.

 Families really do just fine without promotion.

 It's exactly when the interventionist welfate state promotes the socialist values and lifestyle that the family institution deteriorates.

 miko


Again Miko...you're off base.

Family promotion by the state is not what I referred to.....traditionally, families themselves, schools and churches promoted family values....of course, you'll probably find something wrong with that as well.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2004, 10:01:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Again Miko...you're off base.

Family promotion by the state is not what I referred to.....traditionally, families themselves, schools and churches promoted family values....of course, you'll probably find something wrong with that as well.


Traditionally, yes.  And then the government interfered with families through welfare programs, interfered with schools through mandated curriculums, and is now trying to interfere with churches through the "faith-based initiative" BS.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2004, 10:02:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
No. I'm telling you that it's not the place of government to concern itself with marriage and the promotion of it. Even if we agree that there is a problem, the government shouldn't attempt to fix it even if it could.

You conservatives keep forgetting that you want LESS government. ;)


Then by the same logic, it's not the place of government to concern itself with those who choose an unnatural realtionship.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2004, 10:06:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
You know another thing the bible calls an abomination right?
Eating shellfish
Yes thats right, according to the bible eating shellfish is right up there with gay marriage.
Better start passing laws banning the eating of shellfish if we are going to make laws banning gay marriage.


The above so clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding the scriptures and the hardness of your heart.