Author Topic: canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..  (Read 5149 times)

Offline Lizking

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2004, 04:00:15 PM »
I live in a city of a million and a half, don't own a gun, don't lock my doors or my car and have never had a problem.  Vort, your idea of the US is pretty far out there, dude.

Offline AVRO1

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2004, 04:05:38 PM »
I would like the damn gun registration abolished ASAP.
But the legal system is a bigger problem.

A guy that was the leader of a teen prostitution network got sent to jail for less then 5 years.
How any judge can justify that is beyond me.
I was was one of the victim's parent I would probably have called a farce to the media and asked for support to get a better legal system.  Or shot the stupid JUDGE and pleaded guilty to justifiable homicide. :D

We also are starting to get gang problems.

I wouldn't mind people being able to carry concealed handguns.
I would get a license to carry a weapon if that was the case.
Then I would buy a PRECIOUS! little Glock. :cool:

OH MY GOD! I am getting laszy! :eek:  RUN FOR YOUR LIVES :D

Offline weaselsan

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 04:07:07 PM »
Maybe the anti-gun experts can explain this statistic

Gun crimes California 2000-2002 166,284

Gun crimes Maine 2000-2002 1,100

I can add up the gun crimes in over 20 states before I equal the number in California?????
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 04:10:19 PM by weaselsan »

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2004, 04:25:29 PM »
Quote
No matter what the country or what the circustances....THAT COUNTRY does not benifiet and allmost allways get's worse from harsh gun control. Removing guns from ANY country that is studied seems to make things worse not better... In countries like the U.S. where more people are armed... the more that are armed the less crime there is.


I don't completely agree with that statement. I think gun crime has increased in many countries NOT because of gun control, which you imply but in SPITE of gun control.
As you often say gun control only restricts law abiding citizens who want to own guns.  Criminals always find a way.

I would say that harsh gun control does not work to reduce criminal gun crime although harsher gun controls were brought in these countries more or less in response to much publicised massacres by previously law abiding gun owners, like Dunblane.  It was always a fantasy that this would also reduce criminal gun crime.  

Here in Ireland,we have very hard gun laws and have had them for many years. No hand guns for example. This was in response to the terrorist threat Of course it didn't work. The IRA at first got Armalite rifles from sympathisers in the US (ironically) and later from Colonel Gadaffi.  Again harsh laws didn't work, just restricted law abiding citizens. But it's not a big issue as most people are effectively anti gun.  

But the laws didn't cause terrorism any more than they caused an increase in gun crime these days. There is a shooting in this city almost every couple of weeks. All gangster and drug related.
This hasn't caused a demand for increased gun ownership but demands for increased policing, who ironically don't carry guns.

So I agree that gun control does not reduce gun crime it just restricts people's rights to own guns.

Basically gun control does not work.  That is now my view.  I have been swayed on that subject by comments from Lazs and others.  But I'm not ready to join the NRA just yet. :D

However I just don't believe it causes an increase either. Other factors are at work there.  At the same time I don't believe unrestricted availability of guns automatically reduces crime. Other factors are at work there too. I would give more credit to the American people as the law abiding citizens they mostly are, more effective policing and yes gun owners who are most often very conservative and law abiding of citizens.

I was never anti gun but of late I'm drifting towards to nearly pro gun lobby but ever so cautiously.

:aok

Offline straffo

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2004, 04:31:12 PM »
You forgot a lot of context Weazelsan like :

Maine : 1,270,180
Metropolitan       38   %   
Non-Metropolitan     62 %

Kalifornia : 34,142,840
Metropolitan       99   %   
Non-Metropolitan      1 %

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2004, 04:40:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
You forgot a lot of context Weazelsan like :

Maine : 1,270,180
Metropolitan       38   %   
Non-Metropolitan     62 %

Kalifornia : 34,142,840
Metropolitan       99   %   
Non-Metropolitan      1 %


That's 34 times the population
Gun crimes are 166 times more

Offline Ripper29

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2004, 04:58:26 PM »
Lazs, while I am no fan of our current gun registry and some of the laws but hey thats beside the point.  I do question the study done by the Frazier Institute, boy the do get some different ideas.  Anyway there is no evidence that there has been a hugh increase in crimes in Canada related to any of the gun laws.  In fact other then an increase in some property crimes the crime rate in Canada has been declining at a similar rate as the US.  I won't cut and paste a whole lot of numbers but if you want to check the following link it explains it better.  But remember numbers are numbers and you can get them to say just about anything....right...

The report is a couple years old, but in this field the data is usually dated...  I notice that the homicide rate in Canada is 1.8 per 100,000, while in the US it is 5.5 per 100,000.  That may be due to your more, how should I put this, liberal gun laws.  More guns may mean more practice and better shots...who knows  

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm

Offline lasersailor184

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 05:10:29 PM »
Quote
I live in a city of a million and a half, don't own a gun, don't lock my doors or my car and have never had a problem. Vort, your idea of the US is pretty far out there, dude.


Err, lizking, you can thank your other gun toting friends.  Every other Texan carries (or something like that).

Crime rate dropped overnight when someone said that.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2004, 05:15:12 PM »
I remember talking to a Cuban worker at Guantanamo Cuba in the late 60's,and the thing that struck me the most is him telling me that he fought with Castro in the Mountains against Batista. After the revolution was won, Castro sent special people around to confiscate the weapons. When he ask why he was told, the revolution is over, we won, there is no longer a need to have a weapon. But he said "I know the real reason". Unfortunately there was nothing they could do...they had no weapons.

Offline Nashwan

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2004, 05:25:05 PM »
Quote
In the 1990s alone,the
homicide rate jumped 50%,going from 10 per million in
1990 to 15 per million in 2000.


Why is he using deliberately distorted figures?

For a start, the current figure for 1990 is 10.9, not 10. I wouldn't trust the maths of anyone who rounds 10.9 to 10, rather than 11. It suggests he might have an agenda, doesn't it?

The bigest problem is that he's used two incomparable figures.

The homicide rate in England and Wales is published every year. It is based on the number of homicides recorded by the police in that year, regardless of when they happened.

That figureis reduced to some extent by court cases and futher investigations, for example a death that is ruled accidental rather than homicide is removed from the figures.

That has almost no effect on the published homicide figures, because most cases, especially the difficult ones, don't come to court in the year they were committed. Typically about 30 cases are reclassified as no longer homicide in the year they are committed.  The figures are then published, showing the homicide rate.

However, as cases come to court, the figure for previous years will be revised downwards. This gets included in statistical tables, but not published as a proper homicide statistic. Who's interested in crime figures for 5 years ago?

What that means is, this  "professor" has usd figures from ten years ago which have been through the legal process and had non-homicides weeded out, and comparing them to homicides as recorded by the police.

His site also has a nice little graph. It's the first thing you see when you enter



At first glance, it shows the Canadian homicide rate to be slightly higher than the US rate.  When you look at the scales, though, you see the US scale goes from 0 to 12 and the Canadian scale from 0 to 3 :rolleyes:

Something else strikes me about it though, the way the Canadian figures have fallen in parallel with the US figures. Is that because of all the CCW permits that were issued in Canada throughout the 90s?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2004, 06:20:54 PM »
cpxx and avro etc... I have always said that in the U.S. more guns mean less crime... in your countries it is maybe not so clear cut but.... the evidence seems to point to the fact that you indeed do have more crime when you crack down on guns... at the very least.... you do not decrease crime with womanly and draconian deprivation of your rights..

As I have allways said... and continue to say... you gave up your rights for nothing.  worse... you gave up other fellow citizens rights... and that is what I find criminal.

lazs

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2004, 06:49:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
cpxx and avro etc... I have always said that in the U.S. more guns mean less crime... in your countries it is maybe not so clear cut but.... the evidence seems to point to the fact that you indeed do have more crime when you crack down on guns...
lazs


*shrug* that may be true but what most people are trying to say is that people get more cocky (and therefore more likely to commit a crime) when they carry a more powerfull gun...so by limiting certain more powerfull guns not only are criminals less cocky but there also armed closer to what a citizen would have...as in if the average citizen carries a bowie knife a criminal with a long sword is more likely to commit a crime because hes better armed...but if you make it harder to get a long sword then the average citizen will still carry a bowie knife but the criminal will be stuck with a short sword or a bowie knife himself...and the same holds true with guns

Offline Sox62

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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2004, 08:30:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
*shrug* that may be true but what most people are trying to say is that people get more cocky (and therefore more likely to commit a crime) when they carry a more powerfull gun...so by limiting certain more powerfull guns not only are criminals less cocky but there also armed closer to what a citizen would have...




And how do you propose to limit "more powerful guns"?And if you you did,what would stop criminals from illegally obtaining them,while law abiding citizens would be restricted to lesser calibers?

I'm about to buy a carry gun,and it will be at least a.40 cal...I really don't care what the criminal has.Trust me,if I hit him,he'll go down.

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2004, 08:32:36 PM »
Yeah, lazer, everybody in Texas a gun, some steers and a bigass caddie with longhorns on the hood.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2004, 08:35:08 PM »
Oh lazs you're so full ****. Gun laws in countries outside the US of Cowboys do NOT increase occurances of violent crimes. Violent crimes have been increasing due to other factors, socio-economic, ethnic, immigration based stuff. If anything gun laws in these countries have kept the guns out of the hands of angry people, potentially saving lives.

The US is screwed, you've gone past the point of no return with guns. I live in a country where I have no need to arm myself, don't mind the gun laws being strict, and don't want to declare indepence in my back yard.

Heres a question for you: How do you feel when you are unarmed?