Pyro, Anyone Help on ....

[brady]

I am presently involved in a debate on the WiTP forum and I am looking for a source to help my case. All my sources for the Val indicate that it did indead use the 60 KG bombs in combat, their is a ton of evidance showing photographicaly that they did and every referance for the Val indacates that they were totaly capable of carying them in combat.
  Also my TM-1985-5 indicates that the Navy had no die marker type that could be wing mounted, the only type they in fact had was a small hand dropable type caried in the plane.

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""Contrary to US reports, the aircraft [D3A] did not carry a pair of underwing 60kg bombs. None of the carrier-based kanbaku did. Instead, the underwing containers held aluminum powder to be dropped on the water as a marker to aid the post attack rendevous. Damage control parties wrongly thought that one of these non-existant 60kg bombs had detonated.

John Lundstrom, First Team and the Guad campaign.

footnote that acompanies the paragraph:

The Kodaochoshos are explicit on armament; for the navagational markers and the 250kg bombs, see OpNav 30-3mm, Handbook of Japanese Explosive Ordinance (15 Aug 1945)

As i said Brady, i have yet to find any instance where a D3A in the Pacific attacked shipping with 60kg bombs in addition to 250kg. It makes sense too that for ease and speed, that precious time would not be spent arming the dive bombers aboard carriers with these very small bombs, nor do i suspect any of the CV's carried them in their magazines. "

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 IMO , his source is wrong, namely because of the die marker issue, secondaly his openion on the efectivennss of the 60 KG bomb is off they would be very damaging to the unarmored flight deck and any parked aircraft on them.

[HoHun]

Hi Brady,

I'm afraid that I don't have any data to help you.

However, adding 2 x 60 kg bombs to a plane carrying a 250 kg bomb makes for a bomb load increase of 48%. A worthwhile contribution regardless of whether you consider the 60 kg weapons "very small" or not.

I'm sure they were worth being carried in the magazines of Japanese aircraft carriers as bombs of this class were very well-suited for attack against land targets.

I'm clueless when it comes to chemistry, but I seem to recall Churchill mentioned aluminium powder as important substance for high explosive bombs. I have no idea whether it would make a good marking substance, though.

It seems that the original source reported the use of a 60 kg bomb, so "yet to find any instance" seems a bit strong if you base it only on the conviction that the original report was in error.

The unknown writer might actually be completely correct, but the way the arguments are presented doesn't really convince me.

Of course, it's more difficult to prove the "there never was ..." case than the "... did exist" case, so you have to allow for some margin of uncertainty in favour of the writer you're quoting :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[brady]

Well I spent the morning (ty btw for posting), with my nose in books and looking over online documnets at he Naval historical center...

 Aparently the 60KG bombs were defenatly used a Peral harbor along with the 250 KG bombs (the Val was designed to cary these weapons for normal usage all three of them), their are eye witness acounts of them being droped from Vals...


 So this shows that they did indead use them, one atack on a Auxilary vessel reports them being used aganst them, and one of the BB's was reported hit by Smaller bombs that did not penatrate...


  I am going to the Oregon Militay Museum on Friday to look at OpNAv 30-3mm the Navy book on Japanese Explosive ordance and see what it shows if anyhting for the die marker.


 Somthing else I discovered along the way is a translated record of the Japanese at Midway, it details how the Kates were ordered to Load the Type 80 Bombs for the atack on the Island...

TM-1985-5 shows the Type 80 as a 1,764 pound High explose Bomb....

[Pyro]

I've never heard that assertion made before, so I can't comment on that specifically other to say that I've never heard of that.

An excellent well-researched book is "Aichi D3A1/2 Val" by Peter Smith.  Here's some things from there to back your side and to cross reference with your other sources.

p. 49 - "The D3A1/2's main weapon was a single 250kg bomb carried in a swing displacement crutch under the central fuselage.  Wing loadings were usually of two 60kg light bombs on underwing racks under both wings.  These could be released either separately or as one combined bomb load according to target and circumstances."

p.51 - "60kg Bomb - There were two types, one for use against naval targets and the other against land targets.  The latter, although known commonly as the '60kg' bomb, was actually of 58kg (128lb) and used an impact firing pin.  These were used against parked aircraft on the ground at Ford Island and Hickham Field in the Pearl Harbor strike.  Against naval targets, they had a mainly flak-suppression role."

P.73  describing the attack on Wake Island - "The fourteen 'Vals' from Soryu were each armed with a single 250kg bomb, and were commanded by Lieutenent Commander Takashige Egusa.  They had an escort of nine Zeros.  The fifteen 'Vals' from Hiryu, each of which was armed with four 60 kg bombs (all that were left aboard), were commanded by Lieutenant Michio Kobayashi and had an escort of nine more Zeros."

The interesting thing about this is that it possibly suggests an alternative armament of four 60 kg bombs.  I've seen reference to there being 5 bomb racks in all but I've never seen a photo of or description of that that I recall.

p.74 describing a later attack on Wake - "In total, the 'Vals' took part in two separate sorties that day.  At 0409, Soryu launched a force of six Vals led by Lt. Masataka Ikeda, escorted by six Zero fighters whose leader Lt. Seiji Suganami, was a classmate of Ikeda.  The dive-bombers attacked the island from 0530 to 0545 dropping six 250kg bombs of which four appeared to be direct hits on military targets, with two misses.  The Vals then conducted some strafing passes and all returned safely to their carrier at 0718 without damage or casualties.

The second wave consisted of six D3A1s, led by Lieutenant Michio Kobayashi from Hiryu, which launched at 0500 and again had a six-Zero escort.  Again, they only had 60kg bombs and they dropped two of these each on military facilities and conducted strafing runs between 0645 and 0650.  Bullet holes were found on ten of the Hiryu aircraft but none were lost or put out of action by these hits and there were no injuries.  The surviving 5in batteries were the main targets and appeared to have been well hit.

There followed three further attacks by the Kates from both carriers which used up the final stocks of the 60kg bombs on Hiryu."

He states that the raid on the Darwin airfield used only the 60kg bombs as well and there's at least a couple of combat reports in the book that reference the use of the wing bombs, but they weren't generally used.

[brady]

Thank You very much for taking the time to tanscribe that I do appricate it, you dont know if they (the 60KG) bombs were in fact deployed aganst ships, other than the instances listed above by any chance?

 Check this out:

"It was decided, therefore, that a second attack would be directed against Midway. Orders were issued for the ship-based attack planes to remove their torpedoes and replace them with #80 land bombs."


Now acording to TM-1985- the #80 is the 1,764 pound GP Bomb.


From this Sight:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/midway.htm

[Jester]

I looked through everything I had Brady and although the small bombs were used, mostly on land attack, they were definately carried.
Only real definate bombload mention I ran across was when attacks were launched against the two British Cruisers and Carrer in the Indian Ocean. Only the large centerline bomb was carried then.
I imagine mostly it had to do with range weather the wing bombs were carried or not.


BTY - why doesn't our KATE have the 800kg bomb available?

[brady]

TY Andi for looking, this quest has been prety interesting, a good learning experance, I was looking at a buch of stuff on the Hermies when she was sunk off Cylion, hear and three other ships I beleave a couple escorts and an oiler, all by Valls from what I have read, but I havent found anything on the bomload they carried...

 Hey did you get my E mail about UV?, it's prety fun I always look forward to flying after playing a few turns in it:)


  My Mechanic of world Aircraft Vol. 14, shows the mounting bracket for the # 80 bomb as being prety simple realy, it aperas to use some of the componets of the torp mount, so it may well of been faster for them to load this type if they had the kates configured for the torp already or were planing on switching to the torp, the other bombs the 250 KG and the 60 KG bombs used a rack that neaded to be mounted to suport them. No we do not have the large bomb in AH for the Kate. It would be fun to use though:), the above mentioed refrence to the Kates bomb is the first I have sean for the use of the GP 800KG bomb the # 80 bomb, I have several sources shwoing the Kate and the JIll being capable of carying it, and some photos shoing it mounted, but this is the first I have referance out side of Pearl harbor (the ones at pearl were AP bombs), I have actualy sean for it, it is very interesting to see that it was carried on the CV's.

[brady]

Prety Much all I nead do now is to discredit his source OpNav 30-3mm, which I will be looking at Tomarow, Howeaver to sinch it I nead at least one documented example of Vals using these aganst a Ship...(the 60KG Bomb).

[joeblogs]

The land based Val squadrons (IJN) used 60kg bombs. In the Guadalcanal campaign these bombs were used as anti-personnel weapons and to damage air strips. They were referred to as "daisy cutters."

See p. 65 of John Lundstrom's "The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign." Naval Institute Press. He describes an opportunity to attack transports, but these bombs were too small to do much against ships.

Originally posted by brady
I am presently involved in a debate on the WiTP forum and I am looking for a source to help my case. All my sources for the Val indicate that it did indead use the 60 KG bombs in combat, their is a ton of evidance showing photographicaly that they did and every referance for the Val indacates that they were totaly capable of carying them in combat.
  Also my TM-1985-5 indicates that the Navy had no die marker type that could be wing mounted, the only type they in fact had was a small hand dropable type caried in the plane.

............................. ............................. ........

""Contrary to US reports, the aircraft [D3A] did not carry a pair of underwing 60kg bombs. None of the carrier-based kanbaku did. Instead, the underwing containers held aluminum powder to be dropped on the water as a marker to aid the post attack rendevous. Damage control parties wrongly thought that one of these non-existant 60kg bombs had detonated.

John Lundstrom, First Team and the Guad campaign.

footnote that acompanies the paragraph:

The Kodaochoshos are explicit on armament; for the navagational markers and the 250kg bombs, see OpNav 30-3mm, Handbook of Japanese Explosive Ordinance (15 Aug 1945)

As i said Brady, i have yet to find any instance where a D3A in the Pacific attacked shipping with 60kg bombs in addition to 250kg. It makes sense too that for ease and speed, that precious time would not be spent arming the dive bombers aboard carriers with these very small bombs, nor do i suspect any of the CV's carried them in their magazines. "

............................. ............................. ........

 IMO , his source is wrong, namely because of the die marker issue, secondaly his openion on the efectivennss of the 60 KG bomb is off they would be very damaging to the unarmored flight deck and any parked aircraft on them.

[Angus]

Wow

Very Professional


Punt

[brady]

TY Joe I appricate the help.

 I spent the day at the Oregon Military Museum with my nose in OPNAV 30-3M, the Navy department vershion of TM-1985-5, some interesting stuff, and It did not suport the argument aganst he 60KG bombs and showed that the infor in TM-1985 was corect, howeaver it did list another type of die marker, howeaver it too was devoide of any lugs for airdroping and was indead a hand deployed weapon as well.

 It did list the # 80 bomb howeaver as well and marked it as not being out of production at the time of the printing in Aug. 45, and that they had been recovered from enemy posations that had been captured, they also had pictures of the AP varient of the #80, the kind used a pearl, and showed captured varients of it as well....

[brady]

.

[brady]

Interesting info:


 During Indian Ocean Kido Butai's Type 97s used 800kg land bombs exclusively, whereas Type 99s used 250kg exclusively.

The 800kg land bombs really did a number on dock facilites in Ceylon, etc., and one has to wonder what the outcome of an attack on the PHNYd might have been!

Wenger

[Jester]

The "Large Bombs" used at Pearl Harbor by the Level Bombing KATE's were not regular "800kg bombs but 16" AP Battleship shells fitted with fins.
They were taken from the Battleship Nagato. One of these is the one that ripped apart the USS Arizona.

[brady]

CC that Jester, they were # 80's but their were more than one type of # 80 bomb, as you say the specail one at Pearl were just that special AP bombs intended for the atack, the ones refered to above were land atack 800 KG bombs, so presently we now have several examples of them being used in combat the # 80's in general....More comming I hope:)