Author Topic: beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways  (Read 634 times)

Offline Orig

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« on: February 28, 2004, 07:02:43 AM »
Flying spit5, altitude about 6000 ft, speed around 150-170, pulling back abruptly on stick and adding rull rudder causes a snap roll as expected, but then the plane just falls straight down with the left wing low.  All controls move as expected but there is no effect.  Adjusting throttle setting has no effect.  There is a slight oscillation in aircraft heading and attitude but nothing that seems related to the control inputs.  No damage sounds noted, nothing on aircraft damage list was in red.

Low-speed spin entries seem to go as usual in AH, both spin entry and exit.

Offline Kweassa

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2004, 08:33:48 AM »
Hmm we've discussed this one before, but I tested the Spitfire out more thoroughly this time. I agree with you now that something needs to be checked out.

 The flat spin itself, makes sense. No problem with that.

 But I've checked the way just HOW the Spitfire enters such an aggravated flat spin so fast, and there seems to be a problem with that.

 ...

 When a plane stalls, the weight of the plane, and the torque force pushes the plane's wings and nose to drop to one side.

 Give a plane a 90 degrees left bank, pull the stick max and give full left rudder. Logically, the left bank action makes the plane side-slip towards left - in the case of a 90 degrees bank, the plane would be sideslipping downwards in the direction of the ground.

 When you give full left rudder, the plane rotates on its yaw axis to the left - which in this case, with a 90d bank, it would also be towards the ground.

 So, when you give max stick pull and full left rudder during a left turn, the plane stalls, and drops its nose and left wing abruptly in an action known as "snap roll", towards its left, which, is towards the ground.

 
 Now, this is the weird part with the Spit.

 When the nose/wing drops abruptly and the Spit snaprolls left towards the ground, the result of the snap roll doesn't leave the plane's nose pointing downwards. Maybe the torque force is acting too highly during a stall, but what ever the reason is, the snaproll swivels the plane 180 degrees, and causes the Spit to nose upwards when a stall develops into a spin!!

 With a 90d bank and full rudder, the snaproll usually causes a plane to nose downwards - when that stall is aggravated, it develops into a spin, with the plane spinning wildly on its roll axis, and at the same time, spinning on its yaw axis, too.

 But the SpitV, enters a snaproll which spins the plane 180 degrees on its yaw axis, with the nose pointing upwards.

  When you check how the Spit moves during this weird spin, it's quite freaky. Imagine a yoyo when it spins downwards. The flat side of the yoyo, is the flat side of the plane. That's how the SpitV stalls - it snaprolls, spins 180degrees on its yaw axis, nose comes over the horizon and bam! immediately enters flat spin at that point.

 ..


 I think it must be looked at. I think that the momentum of the nose area in the Spit, when it enters a snap roll, is a bit exaggerated.



ps) but then again, I've never suddenly pulled the stick into max deflection while kicking full rudder, in a real life plane either.

 During testing, I never had a problem with this weird snaproll developing into a flat spin if I fell into a stall gradually - which means, I enter a left turn, gradually pull the stick harder, I hear imminent stall signs, and then the plane buffets and stalls. This kind of stall didn't develop into such a fatal stall.

 Only when I abruptly pulled max stick deflection as kicking max rudder, while turning, did it develop into a deadly flat spin.

 Maybe that's the normal thing to happen in planes, if someone pulls max deflection of the stick. Especially, when Spitfires had so sensitive and highly responsive elevator controls, reacting quickly even with small stick input.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2004, 08:41:27 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Orig

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2004, 06:04:58 PM »
Yes.  That's why I reported it a second time.  The behavior after a "normal" spin entry is completely different than what happens after a snap roll entry.  Even from level flight, the spit 5 falls like a rock following a snap roll, straight down with the nose level with the horizon and usually in some sort of wing low roll attitude.

Offline bozon

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2004, 12:43:30 AM »
Quote
but then again, I've never suddenly pulled the stick into max deflection while kicking full rudder, in a real life plane either.

such a move is concidered VERY dangerous even with "easy flyers" planes. stalling while giving the plane sharp rudder kick is the way to enter a flat spin. Once the normal airflow is lost over the wings and the yaw spins the plane, it's very hard to predict the plane's behaviour - the air isn't flowing across the wing/tail/elevators/airframe the way it's supposed to and anything can happen.

Bozon
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the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Waffle

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2004, 03:56:37 AM »
you guys disable stall limiter? :)

Offline Kweassa

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2004, 12:28:45 PM »
Ofcourse, Waffle ;)

Offline Dawvgrid

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2004, 04:32:41 PM »
How do you recover a flatspin?,,,haven't succeeded yet.

Offline WilldCrd

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beta 16 snap rolls cause plane to fall out of sky sideways
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2004, 11:23:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dawvgrid
How do you recover a flatspin?,,,haven't succeeded yet.


In some planes you dont...period others you get lucky or have enough alt to stabalize. Heres somthing to put flat spins into perspective

The F14 a 30 million dollor aircraft 98% of the time if one enters a flate spin it is "unrecoverable" With the addition of advanced avionics and flight control computers the number of flat spin crashes has dropped signifigantly because the computer "strongly resists" the pilot putting the A/C into a high AOA to induce a flate spin the navy was lossing 2 a year due to flat spins and they are considered one of if not THE worst spins to be in

To answer yur question with MHO at 1000 ft EJECT EJECT EJECT
Crap now I gotta redo my cool sig.....crap!!! I cant remeber how to do it all !!!!!