Author Topic: Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars  (Read 1813 times)

Offline lazs2

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2004, 10:32:18 AM »
I say we use this place up and then find a new one.  

lazs

Offline miko2d

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2004, 10:43:32 AM »
Chairboy: Spreading humanity is just good common sense.  You don't put all your investments in one stock.  You spread it around a little.

Lots of stuff could happen.  Asteroid strike, disease, war, etc.


 Except that the Moon is not a suitable place for a settlement of humans. If you are there, you are stuck with wrong gravity.

 Even if people magane to survive there, they will not be able to live on earth. At some point the new generation will consider itself separate from mainstream humanity, stop accepting new settlers, and the conflict will inevitably arise.

 Few that "spread" to the moon will cause their children to live as isolated freaks. Those that help others spread to the moon will not gain any benefit to their progeny.

 Only space habitats with earth-normal gravity and abundant energy are realistic ways of settlement.

 miko

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2004, 11:05:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

 Except that the Moon is not a suitable place for a settlement of humans.


Neither was Las Vegas, Mojave, or any other desert town founded in the 1800s, but they existed because we needed outposts for our journeys to places that WERE suitable.  The same thing applies to the moon.  If it can provide fuel and (looking further ahead) raw materials for building habitats, then it is necessary.

Looking far into the future, we might be building things like this:




If we do, then we won't be getting our materials from Earth, we'll be mining them on the moon and, eventually, from asteroids.  Establishing a base on the moon is part of getting to the point where we can do stuff like shown in the pictures above.  Just because it isn't the final solution doesn't mean you don't need to do it.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Wlfgng

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2004, 12:03:26 PM »
snicker...


yeah.. that'll happen.. just like jetson-cars that we're supposed to have been driving by now.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2004, 12:16:08 PM »
Chairboy: Neither was Las Vegas, Mojave, or any other desert town founded in the 1800s, but they existed because we needed outposts for our journeys to places that WERE suitable.

 It's like saying "we could live in Las Wegas, we can swim in molten lead."

The same thing applies to the moon.

 I did not say it would be expensive to recreate human-habitable conditions on the Moon. I said that would be impossible.

  Sure, we can (relatively) easily reproduce air-pressure, lighting and temperature.
 It could not look anywhere like the pictures you've posted (the first one is a space-habitat, not a Moon dome) because in the abcence of magnetic field and thick athmosphere to deflect/shield hard space radiation people would have to live underground or under the layers of led and steel. But yes, we could make the environment livable for humans for a few weeks or months.

 But how about gravity? Do you know what a major effect reduced gravity has on human biology? How much it screws up the body chemistry, from intracellular to the calcification of the bones?
 People would have to spend several hours a day in centrifuges to slow down the deterioration. Maybe certain genetic types will prove less suceptible to damage. If reproduction is possible in such conditions, the children raised on the Moon would never be able to walk on Earth or anywhere where Earth-normal gravity is maintained.
 And they better not come to Earth - they will not be able to take a 3-4-6 G acceleration required to lift from Earth back into orbit, which for them would be 18-36 times their normal.
 So you will have a separate branch of humanity. Sure, they will be tall, fat and have huge perky breasts but you would not be able to intermix with them.

 Lifting stuff from the Moon will be easier but total operations may not be.
 How do you return the ships back? How do you get stuff to moon in the first place? There is no athmosphere to slow down descent with wings or parachutes. Imagine the Space Shuttle having to land on it's main engine - how much fuel it would need? More than it took to lift it. Even if you only use one-way disposable launches from the moon, all the heavy stuff to build them there will have to be gently lowered there first. It will take so much fuel to lower a self-sustaining mining/heavy-industry colony to the Moon that the trip to the asteroid belt will be cheap by comparison.

 The rotating space habitat like the one depicted in the first drawing, but not open to harmfull space radiation, or even simpler design, with earth-normal gravity is the only realistic option untill we can generate gravity artificially.
 The resources and cheap energy are available in the asteroid belt.

 miko

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2004, 12:22:11 PM »
I'm guessing you didn't read my post, as I said the moon is a good place to mine the materials to build the rotating space habitats.  O'Neill space habitats are of course structures that would be in orbit or at lagrange points or some other point in space, not on a surface.  Perhaps I assumed too much when I said 'habitats' and should have defined it more clearly for you?

I'm sad that you wasted that much time posting a rebuttal to your misunderstanding.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2004, 12:38:16 PM »
Chairboy: I'm guessing you didn't read my post, as I said the moon is a good place to mine the materials to build the rotating space habitats.

 I guess you didn't read my post, as I directly addressed your point by explaining why the moon is a very bad place to mine the materials to build the rotating space habitats.

 It will take less fuel to get a mining colony to the asteroid belt than to lower it to the moon without benefit of wings or parachutes. Also, people can live there indefinitely, not just for a few months, requiring constant rotation of personell from the moon.

  miko

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2004, 01:12:30 PM »
Lifting stuff from the Moon will be easier but total operations may not be.
How do you return the ships back? How do you get stuff to moon in the first place? There is no athmosphere to slow down descent with wings or parachutes. Imagine the Space Shuttle having to land on it's main engine - how much fuel it would need? More than it took to lift it. Even if you only use one-way disposable launches from the moon, all the heavy stuff to build them there will have to be gently lowered there first. It will take so much fuel to lower a self-sustaining mining/heavy-industry colony to the Moon that the trip to the asteroid belt will be cheap by comparison.

1. by using some of the fuel they will "hopefully" be mining...
2. by launching it into space the same way we do sattelites then send up a final module that connects it all together and flys it to the moon...to land they simply go relativly slow so when they do enter final landing sequence they dont need nearly as much fuel. we have enough robot knowledge so we could send a couple mechanics there at the start (mining phase) when theres enough materials mined we use another robot to build more robots for the building phase...


a trip to the asteroids will cost less but actually doing anything there will cost much much more.

Offline Skuzzy

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2004, 01:31:21 PM »
There are a ton of ways to land large masses on a low-gravity planet.  Using a combination of electromagnetic land based brakes in combination with a laser excited plasma directed at a capture shield on the incoming mass would do the trick.
As the mass gets closer the opposing electromagnetic fields would dampen the landing.  All depends on the mass and intertia.

You could even use a capture device to snag the mass out of orbit with a hydraulic brake pivot to bring it to the surface.

Think outside the box.

Gravity is a problem, but a short term one (depending on what your defination of short term is).  It would take a generation or two to adjust to the lower gravity.  Yes, they could not come to Earth at all.  No problem.
They probably would be better off not being able to come here.
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Offline slimm50

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2004, 01:34:28 PM »
WWJD? (WhatWouldJulesDo).

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2004, 01:50:21 PM »
A usable industrial/mining colony would weight several hundred thousand tonns. Considerable part of it will be dedicated to building and supplying the trucks to get stuff off the moon - probably 3/4 of the capacity.

 How much fuel is needed to gently lower so much weight to the moon in the first place?

 Once on the moon, where would they get energy on the moon to mine all that stuff and create fuel? It's all heavy equipment. Do we fly nuclear reactors there? Those are very heavy.
 And they would not be able to operate anyway! Because where how do you get rid of excess heat? You do not have a river to to use for cooling. You cannot build a huge cooling towers because there is no air! Do you wait for teh reactor to glow red-hot so that it can radiate heat into space? Or do you build a huge (miles-wide) radiator system to transfer exess heat to the moon's rock? Where do you get energy for that? Where do you get mllions of tons of water to fill it? So the nuclear energy is out.

 The only energy source on the moon is solar collectors. They would have to be huge. Moon's gravity is only 1/6 but that is high enough to prevent building of really big collectors - while in space a few pounds of aluminised mylar can be spread into a collector mirror many miles in arrea. Not on the moon.
 And what will you do half the time during the moon's night? Build huge batteries to store energy for a huge industrial operation? They would have to store energy not for a day but for about two weks. Quickly, calculate the weight of batteries required to run the earth's mining complex for a couple of weeks.

 A space-based solar collector of course will always be at an optimal angle to the sun, with constant, predictable output. No batteries would be required at all!

 If we lift hundred of thousand tonns from Earth, why bother lowering it to the moon to have it operational at 25% capacity half the time?
 Why not fly it to the Belt? Why not fly one quarter of it to the Belt for the same capacity?
 The Belt is the natural stepping stone to the moon, not the other way around.


Skuzzy: It would take a generation or two to adjust to the lower gravity. Yes, they could not come to Earth at all. No problem.
They probably would be better off not being able to come here.


 But why would we care to do that? We are talking about taking humans to space.
 I have no intention for my descendants to stop being humans but instead a race of wealkings confined to cave life on a lifeless rock.
 I do not even care to help others turn their descendants into a race of non-human freaks confined to cave life on a lifeless rock. I would not buy that even if you promise that those freaks will help my human descendants to get into space by supplying them with materials.
 We already have that experience, thank you. In a couple of generations those moonies will claim disability for their terrible weakness and disfigurement - and rightly so - and require welfare and preferential treatment to compensate them. And unlike the inhabitants of the american inner cities, those moonies will have means to drop heavy objects on earth cities and space habitats if their demands are not satisfied.
 We would have to pay them "reparations" forever.

 The heck with that - I would rather pick my own cotton this time.

 miko
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 01:55:39 PM by miko2d »

Offline BlckMgk

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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2004, 01:54:45 PM »
Nano Tech looks promising, maybe even create suits that are suited for helping folks from the moon or earth coop with the different physical strains of differential gravity, i.e. a titanium threaded skeletal suit worn close to the skin and supports the body. Maybe even surgery of some sort to add support to our skeleton, thin flexible tubes filled with a "glass metal" with a certain charge, the metal can increase in strength providing more support...

Aye... I say think out side the box.. its always less cluttered outside...

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2004, 02:04:19 PM »
You can stay here miko.  I would be happy to volunteer to go.

Its easy to pick on the many reasons and to sight the many problems that need to be overcome.  But it the precise reason why we must go.  The challenge.
Some will not see the challenge or have any sense of accomplishment.  Too overshadowed by shallow, short sightedness.  It is a given that resistance to change is an inevitability, but just as sure and just is strong, change will come.

Some will fight it, others will welcome it.  I welcome it.  I detest what has happened to the spirit of man.  The small minds of those who have no vision will never be happy with anything outside of what would fit in their tiny little box.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2004, 02:23:00 PM »
Skuzzy: You can stay here miko.  I would be happy to volunteer to go.

 You seem to be missing my point - or intentionally mis-representing my opposition to your favorite method of space settlement as opposition to space settlement in general.
 I believe the latter because nobody would confuse my "let's go to the asteroid belt" statement with "let's stay on earth."

 I would rather go. I just think that the diversion to the moon would cost humanity decades if not centuries wasted and we do not know if earth-bound humanity has those centuries.

 If you are so narrow-minded that you cannot see the space settlement besides the settlement of the moon, then I guess your only resort is to accuse others of being "small minds ... who have no vision".

 Whatever.

 miko

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2004, 02:27:01 PM »
You'll have to fight me to get the front seat on that ship Skuzzy ;)

Daniel