Author Topic: AERODYNAMICS help from wells,HiTech Zigrat & funked types?  (Read 488 times)

Offline Citabria

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AERODYNAMICS help from wells,HiTech Zigrat & funked types?
« on: December 14, 2001, 09:34:00 PM »
questions for you guys:

Explain the relationship between center of pressure and center of gravity?


how does the center of pressure change when the angle of attack changes?

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Offline Sundog

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2001, 11:45:00 PM »
The Center of pressure is that point at which the resultant of the distributed load effectively acts on the body.  The moment is zero at this point. Basically, as alpha increases, the center of pressure shifts forward. We usually don't relate this quantity to the C.G. though. We use the Aerodynamic center instead. The Aerodynamic center is a point on the chord line where the wing pitching moment is a constant wrt alpha. We also must use this point as the location for our resultant force vector caused by the pressure distribution.

Therefore, you can see the wing has a 'built in' pitching moment, based upon it's actual 'design'. I.e.-This moment is determined by the airfoil used, the wing planform, etc. Therefore, for the wing, as alpha increases, it is the lift value which will increase, while the wings pitching moment will remain constant at the aerodynamic center, at least until you reach the stall. Of course, the aerodynamic center will shift as you use high lift devices (Leading edge slats generally won't effect it much unless used in conjuction with flaps, as slats, in and of themselves, generally don't effect the chord line much.)

Now, with regard to how this relates to the C.G., I will assume you are speaking of a World War Two aircraft which is naturally stable  (i.e.- the C.G. is ahead of the A.C.). You can look at it as a 'teeter-totter' which you have to balance. Imagine we have an aircraft with it's nose pointed to the left. As we move right, we will first encounter the c.g. as we move a little further right, we encounter the A.C. Since an aircraft rotates around it's c.g., you can imagine that if we have some airspeed, the lift force will make the aircraft want to rotate CCW (Nose down) To counter act this, we place a small upside down wing on a lever out the back (The horizontal tail).
Generally, there are many conditions which the tail must be sized for.

But basically, the relationship between the Center of Pressure and C.G. is related as a function of how the lift varies at the aerodynamic center through changing alpha, wrt to the allowable c.g. range. Does that answer your question?

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2001, 12:26:00 AM »
ok I'm understanding the center of pressure better now and how it relates to how much angle of attack the wing is pulling.

greater angle of attack further forward center of pressure moves lesser angle of attack center of pressure moves to the rear.


is the center of pressure the central point of lift on the wing too?
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Offline wells

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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2001, 01:24:00 AM »
The CG doesn't have to be ahead of the AC for the plane to be stable.  Depending on the size of the tail surfaces, the CG can be behind the AC some distance and positive stability is possible.  If you can pull enough AoA to stall the wing, chances are the CG is behind the AC somewhat.  The movement of the CoP really isn't that much, maybe 2-3% of the chord until you stall, then it moves back significantly (maybe 25% chord), helping the nose to pitch down.  You can visualize the CoP near the thickest part of the wing.  As the AoA increases, you can visualize how the thickest part moves forward.

When the CG is behind the AC, you get the wing helping to pitch the aircraft, not just the tail, so it's more responsive and sensitive since it can stall with less stick deflection.  On the other hand, it's a smoother ride, being less stable.  By that, I mean it doesn't *snap* back as quickly when you center the stick.  Likewise, if the CG is too far forward, you probably won't be able to stall it at all, since the wing is now fighting the tail.

Offline Duckwing6

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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2001, 03:33:00 AM »
got an exam coming up ?

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2001, 03:45:00 AM »
I think Sundog was mixing the AC of the wing with the AC of the airplane.  The AC of a conventional airplane is behind the AC of the wing due to the presence of the tail.  So AC of the airplane can be behind the CG even though the AC of the wing is ahead of the CG.

[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2001, 09:49:00 PM »
THANKYOU WELLS!!!!  :)

that has helped me a lot in understanding this area.


no exam coming up yet just trying to get on my toes on everything I never knew and or have forgotten
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Offline Citabria

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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2001, 09:58:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wells:
[QB]The CG doesn't have to be ahead of the AC for the plane to be stable.  Depending on the size of the tail surfaces, the CG can be behind the AC some distance and positive stability is possible.  If you can pull enough AoA to stall the wing, chances are the CG is behind the AC somewhat.  The movement of the CoP really isn't that much, maybe 2-3% of the chord until you stall, then it moves back significantly (maybe 25% chord), helping the nose to pitch down.  You can visualize the CoP near the thickest part of the wing.  As the AoA increases, you can visualize how the thickest part moves forward.

QB]


is that a typo?

as AoA increases towards stall you mean the CoP will move to the rear of the wing 2-3% until reaching critical angle upon which it can move back up to 25% of the chord helping pitch the nose down.

but as angle of attack decreases visualize the thickest part of the wing moving forward as the angle of attack is decreased?

it is a excellent and clear explanation you gave wells except for that one line  :)

p.s. thx again
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2001, 10:04:00 PM »
are AC and CoP the same?    :eek:

[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Offline Sundog

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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2001, 10:25:00 PM »
You are correct Funked, I was concentrating mostly on wing Nomenclature. Not the entire vehicles'. As such what Wells said is absolutely correct.

Offline FlyingDuckSittingSwan

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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »
Sundog...the link to your webpage in your profile doesn't work.

You put: http://www.devildogs,com

It should be http://www.devildogs.com

You put a comma instead of a full stop (period for you yankees).

Seems a pity cos it's a nice web site.  ;)

Offline Blue Mako

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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2001, 07:57:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria:
are AC and CoP the same?     :eek:

AC = Aerodynamic Centre

AC is usually used in different contexts to Centre of Pressure but means roughly the same thing.