Author Topic: @Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs  (Read 4967 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2004, 02:40:58 PM »
Just by the weight of 50 rounds of 20mm and hopefully by 5 rounds of 30mm. I'll take that. :)

Offline Wmaker

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2004, 03:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats for the Bf109G2?


Document is dated 25.10.1943. At that time there were no G-6s in Finland, only G-2s so yes.
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Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2004, 03:40:42 PM »
now that ammo load has been discussed how about we comment on performance? :)

quoting from the LEMB thread I linked

Quote

copy paste from this thread and posted by sagitario

Messerschmitt sheet IV/56/42 dated 1.7.42 shows the following performance (calculated):

Bf 109 F-4 (DB 601 E)

Take-off weight: 2900 kg

Max horizontal speed (clim & combat power):

523 km/h @ 0 m (1165 PS)

572 km/h @ 2000 m (1250 PS)

611 km/h @ 4000 m (1250 PS)

635 km/h @ 6000 m (1185 PS) (VDH)

626 km/h @ 8000 m (940 PS)

Climb times:
0'9 min @ 1 km
1'8 min @ 2 km
3'7 min @ 4 km
6'1 min @ 6 km
9'3 min @ 8 km

Another Messerschmitt page (curves for various fighters) shows:

Bf 109 F-4 (Take-off weight: 2890 kg)

Climb & combat:

525 km/h @ 0 m

635 km/h @ 6000 m

Emergency power:

540 km/h @ 0 m

670 km/h @ 6300 m

Both curves are noted as erflogen (from flight tests).

Yet another one , this time a comparison between Fw 190 (BMW 801C) and Bf 109 F-4 at Rechlin (Kurvenblatt v. E'Stelle Rechlin v. 15.10.41):

 Take-off weight: 2890 kg

Climb & combat:

525 km/h @ 0 m

645 km/h @ 6200 m

Emergency power:

540 Km/h @ 0 m

670 km/h @ 6300 m
 

AH 109F-4

Climb & combat:

315 mph (507kmh) @ sl

385mph (620kmh) @ 20500ft (6248m)

Emergency power:

335mph (539kmh) @ sl

395mph (636kmh)@ 19500ft (5944m)

I read Butch's reply in the thread I linked and its unclear to me when the DB601E was cleared from 1.42ata. From his reply it would be sometime past Jan '42.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 05:41:52 PM by Batz »

Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2004, 03:44:23 PM »
Just noticed something is AH emergency power Start u. Notleistung or climb and combat power? Whats "military power" in the Ah chart?

Offline GScholz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2004, 04:12:46 PM »
Batz, why are the power figures so low in that speed table? In the US 109F4 test posted above the DB-601E is rated for 1400 hp at 16k and 1325 hp available for take-off.
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Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2004, 04:31:10 PM »
Are you referring to this?

Quote
Max horizontal speed (clim & combat power):

523 km/h @ 0 m (1165 PS)

572 km/h @ 2000 m (1250 PS)

611 km/h @ 4000 m (1250 PS)

635 km/h @ 6000 m (1185 PS) (VDH)

626 km/h @ 8000 m (940 PS)


Because they are climb and combat (30 min limit), Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung) would be maximum (either 1 or 5 min limit I cant recall).

Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2004, 04:38:20 PM »
Onething about that Ami "test" if you read the LEMB thread you would have noticed the following

Quote
The US report from 1943 was a compilation of the British F-2 and F-4 reports with all mistakes included, but the US authors were cautious enough to list the British test data as eastimations.

Offline moot

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2004, 04:47:38 PM »
not sure if this is rude, but Pyro, why would some vehicles have (if not only, then an option for) maxed ammo and others not?
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Offline GScholz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2004, 04:59:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Are you referring to this?



Because they are climb and combat (30 min limit), Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung) would be maximum (either 1 or 5 min limit I cant recall).


Yes.

So are you saying the AH 109F4 is slower on 10 min WEP than the real F4 was on 30min climb/combat?
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Offline GScholz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2004, 05:02:40 PM »
Never mind, I see it now.
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Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2004, 05:41:14 PM »
Comparing the AH F4 with the numbers I quoted above I am wondering if the AH "military power" is in fact "climb and combat power? Is "emergency power" in AH really takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung)?

Of course this means agreeing that the numbers I quoted were correct, they may not be as I am no where near qualified enough to say.

If those number are correct it appears that the AH 109F-4 is a too slow.

For instance from my quote above it lists 635kmh @ 6000m climb and combat power (the last set of numbers list 645kmh @ 6200 m).

AH military power is about 620kmh @ 6200m

AH emergency power is about 636kmh @ 6000m almost matching the quoted numbers for climb and combat @ 6000m.

The numbers quoted for emergency power

670 km/h @ 6300 m

Max speed for the AH F-4 is 395mph (636kmh) @ 19500ft (5944m)

So my question is AH military power climb and combat or is ah emergency power climb and combat?

If AH emergency power is really climb and combat power then the AH f-4 maybe too fast OTD and definitely to slow at alt.

Also that would mean that the AH F-4 doesn’t model Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung).

Sorry for the confusion.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 09:10:16 PM by Batz »

Offline moot

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2004, 12:52:10 AM »
'73

I'd think so, as the MK108 certainly does.
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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2004, 08:22:18 AM »
Batz, thanks for posting that part from LEMB, I didn`t know it was discussed also there. Also thanks for putting the discussion on track again - I was bit worried when I saw the first comments.

The 1.42ata boost for DB 601E was allowed from May 1942, according to butch`s post from the old bui forums :


Quote
Yes and according to several other Messerschmitt and Daimler-Benz documents the engine had to be derated because of overheating hence the loss of speed. Check for instance the F-4/Z or F-4/R1 manuals as well as the August 1941 issue of the DB601E manual. The full boost was not officialy re-instated until may 1942.

Butch


But now I have read butch`s comments on this on LEMB, so it`s could be cleared in February 1942.

I suspect such new allowences didn`t actually happen from one day to another, what I suspect that these official dates were actually the time by when ALL the engines were recycled in the factories were modified in the neccesary way run at higher boost -and only then DB issued a general note.
BUT individual engines, that were already modified long before must have had an indication of this on their Motor Cards, so, in real life it was likely that the modified engines already run on increased boosts while the others, non-modified ones were still restricted.

Can anybody confirm this or give a better idea?


It appears that the legacy of old Green books still haunt, and performance figures given for F4 are a strange mix of Kampfleistung and Notleistung, but in general the true performance is greatly understated. From these figures, I now understand why LW aces had such preference to the F-4 vs. ealrly G models... at full boost, the F4 was very comparable to the G-2 in performance at most altitudes. I really wonder if there are actual F-4 climb figures exist for 1.42ata - considering the 1.3ata avarage initial climb rate is already impressive at 18.5m/s .

This speed performance figures, and the original data if possible, should be forwarded to Oleg Maddox of Il-2 Sturmovik. Clearly the F-4 figures are only for 1.3ata in Il-2. Most of the fighting on the EFront did place with F-4s when 1.42ata was cleared.

Re : ammo loads...

The F-4 cannon load is clear. 200 rounds. See the Ladeplan, as presented in Otto/Radingers 109F-K.

There`s more confusion. It`s often suggested that from G-4 onwards the ammo box capacity was reduced to 150 rounds, because of the larger tires and lack of space. Personally I doubt that to some extent, taking the actual space gains from making the box 50 rounds smaller... very tiny. But, it counts more in this regard the British evaluation report of G-14 from the 412 xxx series as on the Lair, provided by George Hopp. It has the large tires, in fact the plane itself is probably a G-6 converted to G-14... yet the British report mention the cannon`s ammo tank CAPACITY is 200 rounds, but only 150 rounds are loaded...?? :confused:  Just some food for thought.

Offline Eagler

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2004, 09:33:16 AM »
I vote for another 50 rounds in the f

ty
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Offline Batz

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@Ring. Bf 109 F-4 speed specs
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2004, 10:06:48 PM »
would you rather have 50 more rounds of improved performance?

Is this thread dead?