now I have it on film!!!

[Fury]

RAM,

That may have been me in that B26, flying 17k or so E-NE of field 8.

I did suffer a left aileron damage and something on the right (don't remember specifically what ctrl-d said but it was a control surface), but I went on to fly for another hour or so and acutally landed that sortie.  Turns were sluggish but rudder was helping.

Last night I flew 5 B26 missions, all to F8 from F1.  I have been opening up at the longest distance possible (up to D2) to see how the bullets fly/arc and see if I could land any pings.  I feel that I was able to see some hits (mostly misses) at D1.5 - D1.8 on most planes I shot at (had 5 kills on 5 sorties, was downed 3 times I think).  Most of the hits from my POV were from the tail gunner although I think a side gun and the top gun may have shot once or twice.  All three of my deaths were due to engine damage and then wings falling off.

To tell you the truth the only time I remember seeing hits on your plane was that last few seconds as you trailed off...the D1.8 comment may very well be pretty accurate as far as I am concerned.  I was surprised when you disengaged (now I know why of course).  I did not realize that the kill shot was D800, I thought it might have even been longer (I get a little excited gunning and forget a lot).  I have never filmed but I will try to start remembering.

One thing that stood out about that encounter was this:  I wanted to commend you on your approach to my plane (yes I was watching you as from before the time your icon became visible).  Your low approach from my 4-5 o'clock made it absolutely impossible to get any clear shots from the side or rear guns until you pulled up and started shooting...mostly around D1.0 or less.  I was only able to pull off shots at that time and also as you trailed off after each run, until you went out of range again.  Personally I approach 17s and 26s wrong, and watching you was a good learning experience for me the next time I am in my 205 approaching a 26.

I am running this game on a Pentium Pro (!) 200mhz with a connect of 28.8, frame rate usually 20 or so.  Nobody has ever told me I am lagging.  I know my specs are on the low end but the game is very playable for me and I have not heard any complaints yet about anything I am flying (I would leave the arena if this was so).

Fury

[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 03-02-2000).]

[Pongo]

When players are getting 67 kills vs 4 deaths against the b17g its hard to make a case for decreasing the lethality of the bomber mounted 50cal..



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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Lephturn]

Caveman,

I think your info demonstrates that it's a good thing HTC changed something from the early beta.  No way, no how should a lone Buff be able to feel "safe" even when being attacked by fighters.

A lone buff should be dogmeat to enemy fighters IMHO.  It's weaker than it was early beta, but a lone buff is far from an easy kill in AH.  I basically don't bother unless my country needs me to kill a buff, or I am higher and faster.  Going after a buff from anything like a co-E situation is suicide right now.  I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's what I find.

FWIW, I think the issue here isn't the range quite so much as the convergence issues.  Because a buff gunner can control all the guns that bear on the target, when you get pinged you really get hammered.  Maybe spreading the aim points for the guns other than the one you sit in would give us a more realistic effect?

------------------
 
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-02-2000).]

[hitech]

Buffs do not have convergance they spray in a huge pattern.

HiTech

[blitz]

Hey Ram ,
don't be frustrated, just work on your attack behavior.
A buff attack has to be fast,fast,fast+ its also higly recomandet to change sides while closing.
I do alot of buff hunting and i love it,
although it's always a huge effort.  

As for the long range buff guns: Very often i fly besides a 17 or 26 at 1.3 -1.1d for a while and they fire at me, i hear the bullets but very seldom was pinged then.Sure i don't fly straight + level when the bullets comes near.
I only remember 1 situation when i was hit by b17 guns from 1.6d on my fe, and this hit was deadly. Yeah was a little bit strange, but this was 1 time from much more than 100 attacks on buffs.
btw. I seldom open up fire at more than 600 yards when attacking buffs.

blitz

[Ripsnort]

One side note: ONE PING SOUND AT YOUR END COULD MEAN THAT 4-5 SHELLS HAVE ALREADY HIT YOU.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"

"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[Wanker]

Here we go again! *sigh*

We've been arguing this in WB now for about 5 years, and nobody is really happy with the robot "otto" gunners.

Now in AH, HTC has taken the needed step in eliminating the robot portion of it, requiring a buffer to be pilot, navigator, bombadier, gunner and massage therapist(oops, freudian slip). At the same time they've given the buff guns a bit of extra range to prevent the dead 6 attack dweebs from being able to plink away all day long.

What more do you guys want? Sounds to me like you want to have nice, slow sitting ducks with which to practice your gunnery on.

Leph has a point. A lone, unescorted bomber flying at low alt should be meat on the table. But do we want to take realism to the level where it is simply not an option to fly a lone bomber at all in AH?

To me, the crux of the issue is this: Do we want to have lone buffing be effective and survivable, or do we want to make box formation flying with a minimum of 12 bombers mandatory?

I don't fly Bombers in AH very much, because I fly them a great deal in Warbirds. In AH, I've decided to be a fighter puke for the majority of the time. That being said, I respect the buff lovers out there, and have no problem with how difficult it is to attack them at the current time. If I really get the urge to bust some buffs, I make sure that I have an alt advantage, and that I attack from hi 2 or 4.

While I would love to see large formations of  bombers become the norm, I'd hate to see all of the lone buffers have to give up their love, just to satisfy the bloodlust of the fighter jocks.

Donning flamesuit, fire away!  


------------------
banana
**MOL** (Men of Leisure)

[Mox]

RAM,  I don't feel it's a buff vs fighter issue because I've seen the same type of weird lag in the fighter vs fighter engagements.

I'm convinced it's more of a lag problem that just so happens to be in the favor of some people.  It's frustrating to say the least and it will be the reason I cancel my account if something’s not done.  I love the game but I will not pay for a product that does not compensate for the lag of some players.  I gave up modems years ago and I'll be damned if I have to play on a modem to get the same type of lag benefits (if it truly is a modem problem and not someone messing with their packets on a faster connection).  I just found a old 33.6 modem that I plan to hook up and do some testing  side by side with my other game machine on a T1 with less than 10 people using it and no web servers, or ftp's running.    When I test with real life friends on a variety of different connections it seems to work correctly.  In most cases testing with people I trust to tell me the truth about damage, a ping or 2 results in damage in the range of 800 and below.

I find it hard to believe that others are not experiencing some of these same types of problems.  

Last night I chased a lone B26 for about 45mins.  When I got close I got a ping from the b26 while I was still 1.4 away and it wounded me (the pilot)!!!  I backed away and got some speed... I charged under the buff at 900 then pulled up into the b26's belly.  I pumped several hundred rounds of .50cal (I was in a 38 with 2000 rounds)all along the fuselage of the b26 my .50 cal convergence was set to 600.  I thought I was firing my 20mm but I realized after the attack run that I had just dropped my tanks.  NO DAMAGE visible!  I closed from 900 to as close as 400 all the while pumping rounds into the b26.  Could it have been that my bullets were to slow to cause the damage since my p38 was only flying close to 250mph at the time and the bullets had gravity pushing them back down since I was firing almost straight up?  I doubt it.
I dropped back down and leveled out to get some more speed when, the b26 is spraying but I'm now 1.7 out and I'm not that concerned since the tracers are not even close to me..then PING! PING! PING!...  WTF?  Right engine is gone.. leaking fuel and I lost a small part of a wing from 1.7!

I asked the b26 fighter in open channel if he had any damage and I never got a response.  I radioed his location ahead to my country and broke off to try and land.  Being very frustrated I watched (on radar)as several other pilots gave up on killing this b26 because they said that the b26 wouldn’t go down.  I didn’t see them fighting the b26 so I don’t know if they were truly getting hits on the b26 but I know I did.  

I believe I have this all on film…. I’ll dig through my films and see if I can find it.

     

Mox
The Wrecking Crew      

[Downtown]

A new form of the "Otto" Debate.

Swager, I think I was in the B-17 that hit you at 1.6.  You had somehow matched my speed, and appeared to be just hanging there.  After a few quick spurts to figure out the travel, well.  Needless to say I too was a little amazed when you went down.

If the attack was a high right rear quarter attack, to a low (Almost directly below the Belly Gunner) attack.  Then It was me.  I sometime toss a few rounds out trying to make the attacker think twice. Your plane appeared to be just sitting there.

I would say the engagement started at D1.6 and ended with you at 1.2 below me.

------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com  
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
One side note: ONE PING SOUND AT YOUR END COULD MEAN THAT 4-5 SHELLS HAVE ALREADY HIT YOU.

If this is true then why is it not changed?  Is the damage model supposed to generate a PING for each and every bullet hitting you?  Or is it just lag?
I'm not doubting you Rip as you have a lot more experience with this sim than I do.

I want a to hear a ping for each bullet hitting my plane.  Lets face it the real pilots knew damn well when their plane was hit because of the noise and the shake and shudder.  I don't believe we have any planes in AH that had the "paper" wings.

Cannons shells hitting were even worse.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Vermillion]

I don't think the issue is about wanting defenseless buffs.

I think the issue is about playing on an even field.

Currently HiTech gave the bombers guns a "boost" in range and lethality to compensate for lag and other internet strangeness.

Personally, I feel that the "boost" is too high.

The optimum effect is if the players feel like they can confidently engage one another at the same "percieved" distance (including lag effects).

Right now though, Bomber gunners know they can reasonably engage, hit, and destroy enemy aircraft out to 1.5k, and get critical hits out to as far as 1.8k (in my experience).  And this is the distance on the fighters FE. Fighters can't reasonably get hits till half that distance.

So I think it needs to be adjusted till the bombers can reliably hit out to about 700-800, on the fighters FE. The same approximate distance the fighter can engage the buff. A little leeway may be needed, but right now the range disparity is immense.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Ripsnort]

Mox, I shouldn't even respond to you since you have a tendency to say "Bite me" when people ask you nicely to take your arguments with others from open channel to  private when online, however, I can get beyond that..
your answer is correct, lag.  I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-02-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Mox, I shouldn't even respond to you since you have a tendency to say "Bite me" when people ask you nicely to take your arguments with others from open channel to  private when online, however, I can get beyond that..
your answer is correct, lag.  I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew.

Rip, Are you sure you have the right person your talking about?  I've never been asked to take a conversation private.... I rarely ever type in the open channel.  I never have argued in the public channel, in fact the most you might ever see me say would be "Did you take any damage?" or maybe even as extreme as "Please check your connection".

"I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew."
I didn't play any of those sims.. AH is still very new to me.  Was the ping problem present in all the other sims you listed?  I didn't play them.  This is my first experience with this type of lag.

For the record I've never said "Bite Me!"
Also for the record... Ripsnort, I have never seen you lag the way I'm talking about nor was my message directed towards you in anyway (except for the question about lag).

Mox “confused”
The Wrecking Crew


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-02-2000).]

[RAM]

Fury: yes the engagement was E-NE F8,so I guess that was you then...

Your point of view its mostly the same as mine...from 900yds-1K I got 2 seconds burst on your plane,and you only had aileron and maybe elevator or flap gone. You got one ping at 800 yds and my Engine was gone. Another ping at 1.8K and MG gone...<S> on your gunnery...but sorry this is unacceptable. So long range hits are unacceptable.

Hitech, yes, the Bombers need help but no these laser guns. I believe that this is a good example of how overmodelled are the bombers in this sim. Please make them playable. But PLEASE!!! make them killeable!!!

CaveJ...well excuse me but 5 kills per sortie is also UNACEPTABLE!. If this was a real thing then why have fighters in WWII??? then Schweinfurt would've been a slaughter for LW!!!!. Yes, I know that a lone bomber isn't playable in realistic ways. But the help given is TOO MUCH to be accepted.5 kills per shortie??.My god.

Hitech,again,I think i'm talking for MANY people here...fix those turbolasers to a credible point. The 190A-8 was a bomber killer...If I cant kill bombers in it What can I do then?!?!?!?!?!

To all the people. The attack I developed was to go 1K UNDER the B26. Then pop up and go for him from the under side. After it, go down again and pop up again. In the second pop up he got my left engine with a single ping. My attack was a good one (not my shooting on the second pop up), but this S**T made it fail at all.

If you want good Gunner cover, take a B17. If you want speed take the B26. But both were VERY vulnerable to fighers, speccialy the B-26. I accept they must be somehow overmodelled to make a buff playable, but right now is like giving the buff the Death Star's lasers!!!!!!!!


Fix it,please.Thks in advance


------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

     



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-02-2000).]

[Mox]

-delete-

was a double post.

Mox

[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-02-2000).]