Author Topic: Alternative Minimum Tax System?  (Read 294 times)

Offline Wanker

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« on: April 14, 2004, 10:19:05 AM »
I heard a report on NPR the other night discussing this, which I had never known of before.

I can't remember many of the details, but the large chunks I retained were that the AMT was created in the 1960's in response to a national bruhaha that was created by the discovery that 255 wealthy people in the US paid no taxes that particular year.

So, this tax was meant to make sure the very wealthy have to pay "their fair share".

But, apparently, the income needed to qualify a person for this has not been adjusted for inflation, which means that whereas this AMT affected very few people in the 1960's, it's now affecting millions of "middle class" people now, and many tens of millions of middle class folks in the future.

Also, the cost to restructure the AMT to be more accurate to reflect income today would be somewhere in the 3 trillion dollar range. Actually, they reported that it would be cheaper to eliminate income tax altogether than it would be to fix the AMT!

What's up with that? First I've ever heard of the AMT.

Offline Wanker

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2004, 01:05:24 PM »
C'mon, all the brain power here and nobody knows or cares about something like this?

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2004, 01:09:21 PM »
Don't worry.  Vote for kerry and if you make more then 50k a year, your taxes will be doubled!  Problem solved!
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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2004, 01:12:36 PM »
Taxes are a fact of life.  I prefer the idea, tho it needs tweaking, of a flat tax.  I'm a little weary of the class-envy approach to taxation...dont tax me, he has more!

I think our current tax system is rather punitive.  If you work hard, go to school, get a good job and make a good living, you're pounded.  I dont think that's exactly the message we want to send people that strive to succeed

Offline JBA

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2004, 01:39:47 PM »
what you retained is correct.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline mietla

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2004, 01:43:35 PM »
Don;t get me started on taxes and AMT in particular. I just don't need this aggravation.

In short, it is a disgracefull theft.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2004, 01:49:57 PM »
The best thing, IMO, about a flat tax (besides fairness issues) would be a simplification of the tax code.  Goodbye to bloated IRS, etc.  Even better, the politicians who spend our money would have to look us in the face every year and say "This is why the tax rate is 45%, and this is what I'm doing about it."

I think lowering taxes would become a major campaign issue if the tax code was universal and simple enough for everyone to understand.  

Then if we could get deficit spending under control, everything would be (almost) peachy.

Offline Gloves

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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2004, 02:53:15 PM »
Hi banana,

AMT is also known as the Stealth Tax.  Seems like nobody sees it coming.  I think most tax software catches AMT which will print on line 42 of your 1040 (or somewhere nearby).  It does take away some deductions such at certain types of mortgage interest (I think Equity Lines apply here).

I have heard the form 6251 that you fill out is kind of difficult, but with my taxes, it wasn't.  I didn't have any of the excluded deductions it mentioned and I'm close to the bracket that was supposed to be hit hardest.

I agree with the idea of flat taxes for individuals, just maybe on a tiered basis to give a break to low income families/individuals.  Multiply what your gross pay is by x percent & send it in.  It would cut out a lot of IRS bureacracy that's no longer needed IMHO.  :D

Glove

Offline Zippatuh

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2004, 03:14:05 PM »
Instituting a flat tax will not help the AMT.  The AMT is just as it states, alternative minimum tax, even if you have a flat tax but still itemize deductions to the point that you reach a limit that too many deductions are taken you’ll get hit with the AMT.

If you’re saying a flat tax only without the ability of itemizing deductions; that will never pass.  It won’t be the rich that kill it either; it would be the middle class, the one’s who are getting by and scrapping, clawing, and crawling their way to the next level.  They’ll want to keep those deductions, ok I’ll want to keep my deductions, but I’m pretty sure there is a big “they”.

I was really worried about the AMT this year.  I had enough deductions that I was skimming the surface of the AMT.  I didn’t know that it was initiated by a small group of the wealthy not paying any taxes.  The problem is that the AMT doesn’t hit enough people to make it an issue.  The tax cuts that Bush signed in are unfortunately making the AMT bracket bigger.  I think there probably should be an AMT but it needs to be better defined.

More and more of the middle class are being hit with this but not enough that it outrages the whole bracket so it’s not likely that it will get changed any time soon.

For the first time in 10 years I’m getting a refund.  Of course I had to shell out a boat load of my own cash to get it but that’s what I realized about two years ago.  I’m going to have to write a fat check to the Fed at the end of the year, I might as well blow that money on something for me and my future and not just hand it over to them.

If you’re doing well and investing in a future it’s not a bad idea to talk to an accountant to figure out just what and how many expenses you can accrue before the threat of the AMT hits.

Offline -MZ-

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2004, 03:15:53 PM »
http://WWW.SLATE.COM

Bush's Secret Tax on Democrats
How the Alternative Minimum Tax has become a Republican weapon.
By Daniel Gross
Updated Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 2:04 PM PT

President Bush and the Republican Congress, who believe fervently in cutting taxes for the rich, are quietly presiding over a most remarkable kind of tax increase for high-income Americans.
The Alternative Minimum Tax is becoming a miserable annual tradition for a growing group of prosperous taxpayers. (If you've just received a nervous phone message from your accountant—that's probably what she's calling about.) The AMT traces its origins to a minimum tax enacted in 1970 when Americans were scandalized to learn that some 155 high-earning taxpayers owed no income taxes in 1966. The AMT was originally designed so that people who had a lot of income but loads of deductions—through the standard exemption, the ability to write off property taxes and state income taxes—couldn't reduce their taxable income to next to nothing.

Historically, it applied to a tiny minority of taxpayers. But with every passing year, more and more citizens are ushered behind the velvet ropes. This congressional backgrounder suggests that 1.8 million Americans paid it in 2001. Newsweek's nearly infallible Allan Sloan wrote earlier this month that "about 2.3 million returns for 2003 got nipped by the AMT." The numbers are set to rise exponentially in the next several years. A two-income couple in New Jersey—he's an accountant, she's a public school teacher—with combined income of $230,000, three kids, and annual property taxes of $15,000, could easily fall into paying the AMT. Even government bureaucrats get nailed. Last year, IRS Taxpayer Advocate Nina Olson paid the AMT.

While Republicans are patting themselves on the back for reducing marginal taxes, they've been oddly silent about how the AMT excludes millions of Americans—and relatively well-off ones at that—from the benefits of the tax cuts. Here's a theory: Could it be because those most likely to fall prey to the AMT live in states that Bush-Cheney '04 has already written off?

A variety of factors influence whether you get trapped by the AMT. But two of the most important ones are high property taxes (which tend frequently, thought not always, to correlate with high housing prices) and high state and local income taxes. (The high nonfederal taxes increase your deductions, pulling you toward the AMT.) So if you live in a no-income-tax state like Florida, Texas, or Wyoming, or in a state where housing prices and property taxes are very low, like, say, Mississippi or anywhere in the Great Plains, you're less likely to be AMTed. (These helpful charts from the Tax Foundation list state income-tax rates and state and local tax burdens.) Income from options incentives can also help land you in AMT territory.

The AMT seems designed to snare people who earn between $200,000 and $500,000; who work in fields like finance and technology; and who live in places where property taxes and state and local income taxes are high, like New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, California, and Oregon—states that are resolutely Democratic.

There's an element of personal-injury journalism to all the moaning about the AMT because a lot of business and finance writers who denounce it have to pay it. But the scribes are the canaries in the coal mine. Because the AMT isn't indexed for inflation, and because state income and property taxes tend to rise as people's incomes rise, more and more taxpayers will be pushed into AMT territory with every passing year.

As Bill Gale and Leonard Burman of the Brookings Institution warn in this piece:
"By 2010, the AMT will affect 33 million taxpayers—about one-third of all tax returns—up from 1 million in 1999. This would make the AMT almost as common as the mortgage interest deduction is today. The AMT will be the de facto tax system for households with income between $100,000 and $500,000, 93 percent of whom will face the tax. It will encroach dramatically on the middle class, affecting 37 percent of households with income between $50,000 and $75,000 and 73 percent of households with income between $75,000 and $100,000 (compared to less than 3 percent for each group in 2002)."
   
Even as the tax experts are penning op-eds accusing John Kerry of wanting to raise taxes on high-earners, most have been inexcusably silent of late on the AMT. (Amity Shlaes, where are you now that we really need you?)

Republicans don't want to fix the AMT because fixing the AMT would require undoing their beloved tax cuts. Without the billions generated by millions of taxpayers getting slammed by the AMT, the marginal rate cuts would be impossible to sustain for the next several years, let alone make permanent. Without the AMT, the deficit picture would look far worse than it does. This paper by Daniel Feenberg and James Poterba of the National Bureau of Economic Research projects $480 billion in AMT revenues between 2003 and 2010, with the AMT providing $125 billion in 2010. Gale and Burman estimate that repealing the AMT could cost the treasury $1.1 trillion through 2014, assuming the tax cuts are extended. The kicker: "By 2008, it would cost more to repeal the AMT than to zero out the regular income tax."

So what's the problem? After all, tax revenues have to come from somewhere, so why not AMT payers? Economists point out that the AMT has become a nonsensical tax, totally disconnected to its intended purpose. As taxpayer advocate Nina Olson pointed out in her Dec. 2003 report, the AMT now functions "randomly, no longer with any logical basis in sound tax administration." The AMT no longer serves to trap wealthy tax avoiders as it was designed to do. Instead, because it isn't indexed, it punishes people who were never intended to be its targets.

The administration, out to lunch on so many aspects of economic policy, is either oblivious or willfully ignoring the AMT problem. A few bills were introduced last year to deal with aspects of the AMT tangle, but there's been no sign of progress. It's hard not to conclude that there are some pretty crude political calculations behind the inaction. Most of the victims of the AMT live in places where Bush and many Republicans can't compete. Besides, with Bushenfreude still rampant, Republicans know that offering high-income, coast-dwelling liberals tax relief won't help the GOP in November.

Offline Wanker

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2004, 04:37:28 PM »
Yeah, that looks like a transcript of the report I heard. Amazing, I had no idea.

I'm not in any danger of getting hit with it yet, but in ten years, could be.

Offline capt. apathy

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Alternative Minimum Tax System?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2004, 05:04:19 PM »
though it is not a very popular idea around here (Oregon), I'd prefer a sales tax in place of the income tax.

one rate for all.  cheaper and easier for employers to do pay-role. illegals and other who do work 'under the table' would still pay taxes.  a fair percentage so that rich or poor pay the same percentage.  no loop-holes for the rich, if you spend it we tax it.

it would encourage people saving for their own future, since they wouldn't be taxed on earnings until they where spent.

if the need for certain deductions are still felt necessary then they can decide to make certain things non-taxable.  health care for instance could be non-taxable.  no need to keep records or prove spending, you just don't pay sales tax on health care.

of course this would have to REPLACE the current taxes.  if we let them add it in addition then the original taxes would come back up to the current rate and this would be just an additional hand in your pocket.

Offline dfl8rms

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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2004, 07:50:51 PM »
banana,

Even though I don't get close on the Federal AMT, I got zinged with the state AMT.  Gotta love our great state.  What got me was the Interest deduction and the Educational deductions.

Figuring AMT was easy compared to the ESPP (employee stock puchase plan) shares I sold.

Offline rogwar

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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2004, 09:26:50 PM »
I don't care at all for the AMT. We are getting closer to that level and I don't consider us rich by any means....just hard working. If I make a decent bonus next tax season by working my canasta off even more maybe we can qualify for the AMT...which removes a larger percentage from me...

I don't mind paying my fair share but I don't like being singled out as some particular income level qualifying for a special tax.


I know I experimented with it on TurboTax.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2004, 09:48:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
though it is not a very popular idea around here (Oregon), I'd prefer a sales tax in place of the income tax.


Sales Tax? The horror!

How'dya like the new Multnomah Co. Income Tax there Cap'n?  1 1/2% so the can pay for the printing costs of all those new marriage licenses?  At least it's a flat rate.

Time for Oregon to secede from the state of Multnomah.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2004, 03:49:27 AM by Holden McGroin »
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