M-3 Browning MG.

[VooDoo]

Another simple question .

Im interested in some info about F-86 armament. Most wanted:

Rate of Fire.
Muzzle Velocity (for different bullets).

Most interested in 1950-1953 status.

[101ABN]

Initially armament was six 0.5 in machine-guns in the nose and two 1,000 lb bombs instead of the drop tanks. With bombs the effective radius of operations was a mere 50 miles, with drop tanks it was more like 250. The Americans were committed to the 0.50 in machine gun when most air forces had gone with at least one cannon and several machine guns on jet fighters. Eventually it was equipped to fire two Sidewinder missiles, to drop two 453 kg (1,000 lb) bombs or fire eight 5 in rockets mounted under the wings.

.50= M2 browning HB machine gun

[101ABN]

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~benhalligan/sabre.htm

this guy threw together a good site dedicated to the sabre

[101ABN]

Rate of Fire - Aircraft Lightweight 750 - 850 rounds per minute cyclic

Muzzle Velocity - air-cooled 1940s:  2,820 fps (860 mps)

Muzzle Velocity - lightweight 2,840 fps (866 mps)

and i think that i stand corrected. there were 2 varients of the .50
the M2 and the M3

[VooDoo]

there were 2 varients of the .50 the M2 and the M3
Yep. And you are talking about M2 . My question is about M3.

[Rafe35]

Originally posted by 101ABN
Initially armament was six 0.5 in machine-guns in the nose and two 1,000 lb bombs instead of the drop tanks. With bombs the effective radius of operations was a mere 50 miles, with drop tanks it was more like 250. The Americans were committed to the 0.50 in machine gun when most air forces had gone with at least one cannon and several machine guns on jet fighters. Eventually it was equipped to fire two Sidewinder missiles, to drop two 453 kg (1,000 lb) bombs or fire eight 5 in rockets mounted under the wings.

.50= M2 browning HB machine gun

I remember that USAF pilots who flew F-86 Sabre during Korean War and they really don't like 50 cals on the F-86, because they complaining about that 50 cals couldn't damage well on MIG-15 when they firing at enemy Jet fighter and having hard time to wasting ammo.  So, They wish they have 20mm cannon where they can damage seriously on that MIG-15 and I don't know if that true, but I read an article somewhere on US Air Force Magazine.

Rafe

[Tony Williams]

The M3 version of the .50 was substantially modified in order to achieve 1,200 rpm (many parts were not interchangeable with the M2). The F-86 therefore had a total RoF of 7,200 rpm, concentrated in the nose, which was quite impressive.

The standard ammo used was the M8 API, which was a 43 gram bullet fired at 890 m/s.

However, jets like the MiG-15 were much more strongly built than WW2 fighters and proved hard to shoot down. On average, it took over 1,000 rounds per MiG.  The USAF was dissatisfied with this and introduced Project GunVal (gun evaluation) with a couple of different 20mm cannon fitted to the F-86, and this proved successful so they changed to 20mm thereafter.

Ironically, the MiG-15 was no better off, as its armament (one 37mm and two 23mm) was optimised for attacking bombers. Just one hit from the 37mm would down an F-86, but the muzzle velocity was so low that hitting was difficult (and their sights weren't much good either).

The four 20mm Hispanos used by USN/Briti8sh and Australian planes were the best armament, but the planes weren't competitive with the MiG or F-86.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[Flyboy]

what is the round weight of the Mg17 7.9mm and the Mg131 13mm?

just curious since i usually dump a large amount of those when i fly 109 varients.

i wonder if any significant improvement is gained by doing this.

oh 1 more thing how much does the Mg151\20 cannon itself weighs?

[VooDoo]

Thanks for answer Tony.

Flyboy

34-38,5 gramms for 13mm bullets (different types).

[frank3]

I thought we were talking about the M-3 halftrack

[HoHun]

Hi Flyboy,

>what is the round weight of the Mg17 7.9mm and the Mg131 13mm?

Here's an overview over the different weapons. Ammunition weight includes belting/drum. Read "," as "." - my calculator follows international conventions :-)

MK 108 (60 kg), 172 rounds (585 g each, 101 kg total), 970% firepower
MK 103 (141 kg), 101 rounds (920 g each, 93 kg total), 1160% firepower
Hispano V (42 kg), 500 rounds (246 g each, 123 kg total), 400% firepower
MG 151/20 (42 kg), 625 rounds (213,7 g each, 134 kg total), 320% firepower
Hispano II (50 kg), 500 rounds (246 g each, 123 kg total), 330% firepower
MG-FF (28 kg), 714 rounds (338,3 g each, 242 kg total), 190% firepower
MG 131 (17 kg), 3125 rounds (78 g each, 244 kg total), 80% firepower
MG 151 (42 kg), 1282 rounds (182,2 g each, 234 kg total), 160% firepower
.50 Browning M2 (29 kg), 2174 rounds (110 g each, 239 kg total), 100% firepower
Browning ,303 (10 kg), 10000 rounds (30 g each, 300 kg total), 30% firepower
MG 17 (12 kg), 10000 rounds (29,2 g each, 292 kg total), 30% firepower

I've selected the ammunition load for each weapon to give the same total effect, based on Anthony Williams' calculations. Firepower is relative to the M2 Browning and based on Tony's calculations, too.

You can see from the numbers that contrary to popular opinion, cannon ammunition has a considerable weight advantage over machine gun ammunition :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Flyboy]

this is above all expectations.
thanks alot henning