Author Topic: FesterMA  (Read 3319 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
FesterMA
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2004, 12:44:22 PM »
I would allmost rather fight leviathn in my Fm2 vs his spit than tell argue about polling with him beet.   well... I know I would... I might stand a chance in the FM2.  


lazs

Offline pellik

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
FesterMA
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2004, 01:24:46 PM »
My problem with the FesterMA map is the way it seems to encourage everyone to fly in massive mobs. The first few days are great, but by thursday or friday you'll be damn lucky to find an enemy that doesn't have 20 friends with him.

Pizza was the solution to the horde-frenzy effects of maps like festerma. The reason it seemed so boring and frustrating compared to these quick flight maps is that it doesn't force everyone to fly with a mob. If you're in a mob and all 20 of you only come accross one or two lone pilots the majority of the dweebish cowards don't even get an opportunity to get shot down, let alone killed. By the end of a week of pizza people are flying with one or two wingmen, and the fights are considerably more based on skill then numbers. Keep pizza in the rotation just to calm people down after a week of festerma, if nothing else.

-pellik

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
FesterMA
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2004, 01:30:38 PM »
Levi! I'm beginning to think that you work for IBM as well!
Quote
Now you've discovered why it is best to use seven possible responses in a continuous categorical variable rather than five. The fact that several individuals found wiggle room "between" your categories means that you didn't provide enough categories to accurately describe gameplay. The fault therefore lay partially with your survey design. In reality, with such a low number of people responding, you should be happy to include as many responses as possible; perhaps you could have asked for clarifications before closing the polls.
You might have a point if we were discussing something of importance. Look Levi, I've said all along - it was not designed as a scientific poll! A simple straw poll/wet finger in the wind - is all. The results are of no real importance. That's why I didn't spend hours designing the poll. I did not call in a firm of statisticians to help me conduct it. Just a simple query begging a simple answer. And most people (about 90%)  understood perfectly! If the results are so important to you, and the method by which they are arrived at is so important to you, why don't you do your own poll?
Quote
There were two 2/3 (2.5) votes, not one. As such, they would not deviate the same amount. The mean for one 2.5 response and one 3.5 response is 3.0; for two 2.5 responses and one 3.5 response it is ~2.8.
I wasn't talking about those 2/3 votes. In addition to those 2/3 votes you mentioned, someone voted 2.5, and someone else voted 3.5. Those votes cancel eachother out with regard to having any bearing on the mean average.
Quote
True, a majority of the players spent less than half of their time at furball island. However, your claims that "a lot" of players never flew there are incorrect or at least overstated. By the same token, anybody who claims that the 16.7% who flew there more than 50% of the time is "a lot" are also incorrect.
OK, let's put it another way. Out of the five possible valid responses, only one (#5) signifies that the voter spent no time at all at furball central. It just so happens that #5 drew more votes than any other valid answer, ie 8 out of 26 counted.
Quote
However, you can't keep claiming that you recognize that these results mean nothing while constantly pointing to them as proving something to Slapshot or Mars. If you're going to pretend like these results mean something, then use them correctly.
What are you talking about? I don't keep "constantly pointing" to these results. I said "As for where folks would prefer to fly, I did a poll on the OZK map. A lot of those who answered said they remained in the outer area and NEVER entered the furball melee. So it seems I'm not entirely alone." and I said it only once. Get it? The only conclusion I drew, and commented on only once was that "I'm not entirely alone" with regard to MA environment preference. But here you come with your standard deviation analysis, correcting me by 0.09 - what's the big deal?

Sax - yes, I do not work for IBM. Most people don't. But after I had worked for them at a client site in 1992-94, they invited me to join two further projects - 1994-95, and 1996. I think that speaks for itself. :D  And I didn't insult Slap. Just a bit of banter is all.

Lazs - don't worry - the whole thrust of what Levi is saying is based on a couple of 2/3 votes, nothing more. And STILL the answer that drew the most responses was #5. And not even Levi can change that. :D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 01:34:18 PM by beet1e »

Offline 68DevilM

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2033
Re: FesterMA
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2004, 01:41:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Iz up and there are fights EVERYWHERE you look...!

DIE PIZZA DIE!!!


have too say im tryed of fester too now. its been longer than a week and im ready for a dirrerent map. but anything but the small isle map

Offline Dead Man Flying

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6301
FesterMA
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2004, 01:46:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Levi! I'm beginning to think that you work for IBM as well!
[/B]

Um.  No.

Quote
"I'm not entirely alone" with regard to MA environment preference. But here you come with your standard deviation analysis, correcting me by 0.09 - what's the big deal?
[/B]

Perhaps you missed the part where the mode changed from 5 to 3 in my analysis.  That is, when including all responses, more people considered themselves part of the third group than any other.

Quote
Lazs - don't worry the whole thrust of what Levi is saying is based on a couple of 2/3 votes, nothing more. And STILL the answer that drew the most responses was #5. And not even Levi can change that. :D


Actually, I think I might have missed this 2.5 vote you mentioned.  I believe the newly included votes were those two 2/3 votes, a 3.5 vote, and a couple of votes made after you "closed" the poll.  So if in fact I failed to count an additional 2.5, the mean changes even lower.

Here's how I counted the distribution of votes:

1:  1 vote
2:  4 votes
3:  9 votes
4:  8 votes
5:  8 votes

So including the others changes the mode and undercuts this argument you're making that 5 enjoyed the most responses.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10224
FesterMA
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2004, 01:50:29 PM »
Quote
have too say im tryed of fester too now. its been longer than a week and im ready for a dirrerent map. but anything but the small isle map


ROFL... Um no it hasnt...

LONG LIVE FESTERMA!
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
FesterMA
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2004, 01:54:54 PM »
Beet, by your own logic, your poll means nothing, nada, jack squat.
When  convincing  results showed that people wanted the pizza map gone, you were one of the ones quick to point out that only a small portion of the MA was represented here on this board.  Ergo, any poll done on this board is equally meaningless.  So, other than for entertainment, your poll was a complete waste of time.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
FesterMA
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2004, 02:01:50 PM »
And so was your post Steve. :D
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
FesterMA
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2004, 03:19:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Here's how I counted the distribution of votes:

1:  1 vote
2:  4 votes
3:  9 votes
4:  8 votes
5:  8 votes

So including the others changes the mode and undercuts this argument you're making that 5 enjoyed the most responses.

-- Todd/Leviathn
The only thing that's changed is that you've made your own interpretation on the votes that I have deemed to be invalid because they were outside the requested range of 1-5. For my purposes (and remember I did this poll for me, no-one else) 2/3 is not a valid vote. 3/4 would not have been either. I was not merely eliminating votes below the median - indeed, I discounted a 3.5 vote. There was also an "in the sky" vote from Morph. How would you like to interpret that, Levi. Let's see now - three words, so it's a 3. But oh, the average word length in that answer is 2.6666666 letters. Want to make it a 2.7? :rolleyes: Someone else voted 1,2,3,4,5! What do you make of that!

What you fail to realise, Levi, is that anything on this board is soon trashed. I even said it when I posted - I doubted that we could survive 12 hours before a flame fest - that came much later, thankfully. But I am not going to sit here, scratching my head to decide what someone means when he says "2/3" or "1,2,3,4,5" or "in the sky". You KNOW what this board is like, with all the trash talk. The very fact that some people gave invalid answers of the type given demonstrates to me that they haven't read the question properly. And therefore their votes should be discounted. But as I said, if it's SO important to you, do your own poll! Interpret it how you want! I've done my poll, and admittedly - I was surprised at the distribution of votes. But remember - about 6 of the respondents were TAS - a furball squad - and that will have skewed things a little. But even by your own calculations, the voting pattern is weighted heavily towards the 3-5 end. And you know what? It simply doesn't matter. At least not to me. YMMV. :aok

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
And so was your post Steve. :D
LOL Jackal!  Good one. :lol

Offline Dead Man Flying

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6301
FesterMA
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2004, 05:56:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
What do you make of that!
[/B]

Even if you round the responses in question up, the overall results invalidate your claims that 5 represents the mode.  Naturally you are free to ignore any responses you wish, and I'm free to point out how doing so rather than seeking clarifications has skewed your results.

Quote
But even by your own calculations, the voting pattern is weighted heavily towards the 3-5 end.
[/b]

This is true... something like 85%+ percent of the respondents answered with a 3, 4, or 5 even by my calculations.  However, I'm not sure how you would interpret that to mean anything since over 70% of the players flew on furball island in some capacity albeit in varying amounts.  

All of this picks at nits, of course, since the poll (which you seem to recognize) holds no external validity.  Essentially, it tells you how much people who hang out on the forums and who happened to read your thread and respond to it in a limited time frame flew on the center island.  That doesn't give you much leverage in an argument obviously.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
FesterMA
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2004, 06:50:34 PM »
You know Levi, I thought you were a smart guy. It's a pleasure to read your posts. The grammar and spelling are impeccable, and you are clearly very well educated. But now you're making me wonder. However, I will reserve judgement for now.
Quote
the overall results invalidate your claims that 5 represents the mode.
WRONG. You cited earlier that NINE people voted #3. And that is false. There were only 7. But you have conveniently added a couple of votes into the #3 camp in order to manipulate the stats in such a way as to lower the mode. You used your own interpretation to assign invalid votes into what you personally considered to be the appropriate compartments in order to make good on your agenda. A 5 year old could see through that. But it doesn't really matter. After closure there was one more #3, and even a #2. But as I've been saying all along, a straw poll is all that was intended. If you feel compelled to recalculate the results applying your own interpretation to dubious votes to suit your agenda, be my guest.
Quote
All of this picks at nits, of course, since the poll (which you seem to recognize) holds no external validity. Essentially, it tells you how much people who hang out on the forums and who happened to read your thread and respond to it in a limited time frame flew on the center island. That doesn't give you much leverage in an argument obviously.
Exactly! And I made that abundantly clear in that poll thread. As for "That doesn't give you much leverage in an argument obviously.", can you please identify what argument I was making when I conducted that poll? As far as I am aware, the only comment I made about it in here was to mention it, and the fact that other people felt the same way as I did about OZK. So please - do enlighten me. What is this "argument" I'm trying to make? And which results do you have in mind when you say that I am "constantly pointing to them as proving something to Slapshot or Mars."?

I had a drink at the pub earlier. I saw a friend in there and asked if he'd like a beer (or not). And he said that was an improper way to ask the question and that a simple yes/no choice left too much wiggle room. To ask him properly I had to offer him at least seven choices for the question to be valid. So I asked him if he'd like a Guinness, Cider, Stella, Heineken, Hoegarden, Pils or Kronenbourg. And he said "I'll have a pint of bitter, thanks" ;):lol

Well well, look at the time.
Toodle-Pip! :D

PS. Hope we can wrap this up, as there is to be an extended period of toodle-pippage in the very near future.

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
FesterMA
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2004, 09:38:07 PM »
Jackal you have proven to  me time and again what a salamander you are.  Save your comments... they are constantly made to insult/incite... always without merit or substance.  You're a dick, plain and simple.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
FesterMA
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2004, 09:39:34 PM »
Beet, in all seriousness, I'm missing what the big deal about your poll was.  It's your poll.. imho you are free to interpret the results any derned way  you want..... have a nice day.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Dead Man Flying

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6301
FesterMA
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2004, 09:54:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I had a drink at the pub earlier. I saw a friend in there and asked if he'd like a beer (or not). And he said that was an improper way to ask the question and that a simple yes/no choice left too much wiggle room. To ask him properly I had to offer him at least seven choices for the question to be valid. So I asked him if he'd like a Guinness, Cider, Stella, Heineken, Hoegarden, Pils or Kronenbourg. And he said "I'll have a pint of bitter, thanks"


I'm not sure why you persist in trying to joke about something that you clearly fail to comprehend.  Obviously you do not understand that variables possess different measurement levels, and these measurement levels dictate the sorts of procedures you may employ to analyze the variables.  In addition, the sorts of rules and expectations governing the use of these variables in polls varies by measurement level.

I refer you to Hubert Blalock's _Social Statistics_ (1979) for a more indepth treatment of the subject matter.

Basically, we may measure variables at four different levels -- dichotomous, nominal, ordinal (or continuous categorical as I called it, an apt if incomplete description), and interval/ratio.  You erroneously believe that the rules that apply to dichotomous variables (yes and no, for example) likewise apply to ordinal variables for polling purposes when they do not.  The example you gave of the beers is nominal -- that is, it is categorical without degrees of difference between categories.  Measures such as religion or race fall in this measurement level.  Your poll employed an ordinal variable with values ranging from "all the time" to "most of the time" to "none of the time."  Interval and ratio measures are truly continuous and consist of things like income and age, though we may turn interval measures into ordinal ones for polling purposes.

Thus you're applying a polling truism -- that you should employ seven categories for ordinal variables -- to nominal and dichotomous examples here and in another thread.  tsk tsk.

Toodle pip, chap.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline sax

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2006
      • http://www.13thtas.com
FesterMA
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2004, 10:46:54 PM »
If yu even understand half of what DMF just wrote I will take back almost everything I have ever said about yu Beetle:)