Author Topic: Bout that Spit LFIX.... (Read 1748 times)

Flyboy · « **Reply #30 on:** May 01, 2004, 09:32:23 AM »

sorry for bringing this topic back up but..

whats the difference between the G10 and the K4?
both in performence and in size and shape

Rasker · « **Reply #31 on:** May 01, 2004, 08:11:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Replicant
How much better was the La9 over the La7? I've heard that the La9 is superior to the Sea Fury, Bearcat, so would that mean that the La7 was superior to the Tempest, Spit 14? Makes you think for a few minutes!

Sources I've looked at say that the La-9 and La-11 were about as fast as the Bearcat or Sea Fury.

Heres a nice pic of the La-11. looks like a Russian Tempest:

Angus · « **Reply #32 on:** May 03, 2004, 08:39:45 AM »

So, the Russkies had the most-uber-ultimate Piston engined fighters of WW2?
In AH, at least, the high speed performance of the La and the Yak is frigging unbelivable. But how authentic is it? I've seen so many numberes that are misleading (regarding speed), so if there are some test reports around they would be nice to see.
Also, I've often heard that those planes had structural problems. Would be nice to know more about that.

VooDoo · « **Reply #33 on:** May 03, 2004, 09:56:40 AM »

So, the Russkies had the most-uber-ultimate Piston engined fighters of WW2?
La-9, 11 werent WWII fighters.

so if there are some test reports around they would be nice to see.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107516&highlight=La7

Also, I've often heard that those planes had structural problems. Would be nice to know more about that.
Weak wing cover. Prone to reap off at high speed.

Sikboy · « **Reply #34 on:** May 03, 2004, 11:33:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
So, the Russkies had the most-uber-ultimate Piston engined fighters of WW2?

Not Necessarily, but under 10k they'll give you a run for your money. Keep in mind that while other planes were optimized to fight the hi-alt bomber war over Germany, the Soviet planes were optimized to fight the Low-alt Tank War over Eastern Europe.

AH has a lot of low alt combat, which is where the Soviet fighters Excelled. Take them out of their element, and they become decidedly average.

-Sik

Angus · « **Reply #35 on:** May 03, 2004, 12:09:43 PM »

I always thought that the low alt optimization was simply because their engineering was not so advanced in the turbine department.

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #36 on:** May 03, 2004, 12:33:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
I always thought that the low alt optimization was simply because their engineering was not so advanced in the turbine department.

Jolly good, since we agree. Their s/c technology sucked big time, to put it bluntly. Their engines could not keep power to altitude..

What they DID optmize to compensate for this handicap with were very, very clean, dragracer airframes. Take Yak 3 for example. Laughable 1250 or so HP, poor avgas, and it equals the Spit IXLF on 150 grade fuel, and 1900+ HP!

That Yakovlev guy knew something for sure.

Sikboy · « **Reply #37 on:** May 03, 2004, 12:48:57 PM »

Interesting, I had always believed that needs dictated design in this case. Happy coincidence for the Russians I guess (and anyone who likes flying Soviet A/C in AH too! lol).

-Sik

Angus · « **Reply #38 on:** May 03, 2004, 01:08:11 PM »

Hehe, finally agree with Isengrim
The Mig was supposed to be a high altitude fighter, I wonder how it worked at high alt. The basic story is that it sucked, but maybe it never had the opportunity to "shine" in its correct role.
Anyway, from reading pilot autobiographies, one gets the impression that the russians were quite lagging behind in aircraft design, with some exceptions though.
(Il-2 = strong, La-5+=fast).
Flying their rides in AH however is incredible. The La is really fast, and the YAK is really incredible. Both planes accelerate incredibly well, dive well, don't compress, and hold their maneuverability at eccessive speeds. They are reasonably rugged as well (apart from the Yak's radiator, but Pyro sais it's a bug).
A P51 with a Yak on its tail is as good as dead, and fighting the La-5 in say, a 109G6, is a nightmare.
Was it really so?
The Russians got spanked badly by the LW and the Fins, and as an example, the LW lost 4 times as many aircraft on the western front as on the eastern front in 1944, while the war on the eastern front was a larger war.
All makes you wonder really. Were the Russian tactics so bad, or was their plane quality also lagging behind?
I do realise that the we don't have some of the most common Russian planes yet in AH (Rata, LaGG, Yak-1), but still, come on......

Karnak · « **Reply #39 on:** May 03, 2004, 04:52:28 PM »

Angus,

The Russian pilots had practically no training. If they survived long enough to learn they did fine, but they rarely survived long enough to get that "on the job" training. The Luftwaffe and Finnish Airforce both had superbly trained pilots. That is one of the biggest places that online sims fall down, they don't produce historical results because the training/skill levels are much more even. IL-2 is particularly bad on this point as the Russian AI is the same as the German or Finnish AI. Thus you find the Germans and Finns having a nearly impossibel task at times, especialy when coupled with the over generous modeling of Russian aircraft.

RRAM · « **Reply #40 on:** May 09, 2004, 03:40:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Angus,

The Russian pilots had practically no training.

Karnak, that could be quite right for 1941, but for 1943-44 the level of the average soviet pilot was much higher. A lot of german pilots talk about it in their memories, in interviews, etc... In fact they admit that the red banner fighter squadrons had some of the best world fighter pilots flying for them, and that the average soviet fighter pilot was now much, much better and capable.

They also say that the tactics were poor for the most part, and that they had little initiative on their own, which explains why in 1943 the soviets were still losing planes at such an amazing rate against the still expert jagdwaffe.

In 1944 the things changed quite a bit, however. The germans were losing a lot of experte pilots in the west (the most of them) and in the east (not so many). They had to be replaced by "green" pilots just out from the flight combat school.

But given that in 1944 the average german newbie was next to hopeless because the little training he received, and given the fact that up to the very last day of the war the german fighters kept a victory/loss rate of quite over 1, even with the hopeless numerical disadvantage they had, I tend to think that the soviet fighter performances were grossly overstated by the Soviet media and propaganda.

In short...an air force having such "superb" (on the paper) fighters and a much better pilot base, and yet standing such heavy losses against a largely overnumbered enemy with so many green pilots and "inferior" (again, on the paper) aircraft has simply no explanation at all...

Other than that the soviet fighters weren't that "superb" and the german fighters weren't all that "inferior".

It's about the only thing that makes sense. Because for 1944-45 the pilot skill variable favored for the most part the soviet side, not the german one ,and that would be the only reason why the soviets kept getting so many losses until the end. But if the average pilot quality was better in the soviet side than in the german one (and it was, the german experten were very few at that stage of teh war),and all the other variables favor the soviet side, this makes no sense.

Kweassa · « **Reply #41 on:** May 09, 2004, 03:59:37 PM »

Grislawski also states that "the battlefield of 1943, was nothing like which was before a few years ago." From this point on he dedicated his whole flying to carefully planned ruse of survivial.

I remember the account where one of his friends came to his flying group, and Grislawski was seriously worried that he'd not make it for the next two weeks. He was so worried that he suggested to transfer him to his schwarm, so he could always look over him and said, "I will guarantee that you'll survive for the next 50 missions".

His friend was already an ace with 7 kills in 25 missions, and he refused Grislawski's offer. 5 months later his friend was killed in battle, shot down by Bazim Fadeyev, a Soviet ace of the 16GvIAP.

In 1943 the JG52 had to face the 16GvIAP and the 45IAP. Almost all of the Soviet aces were gathered in those two groups. The Glinka brothers in the 45IAP, and Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, and Fadeyev in the 16th GvIAP.

The 16GvIAP shot down 57 German fighters in 12 days between April 9th and 20th of 1943.

Karnak · « **Reply #42 on:** May 09, 2004, 07:36:40 PM »

PRAM. Kweassa,

I didn't say that Russian pilot quality didn't improve. I also didn't say that there weren't any great Russian pilots.

The base training of Russian pilots, throughout the war, was heavily sub-standard by the reconing of any of the other major combatants. Germany and Japan suffered a lack of pilot training as they were pressed, but both started out with very rigorous standards, in Japan's case much too rigorous.

As more and more Russian pilots survived to become veterans they were able to pass on the lessons they'd learned to the new pilots coming in and make the on the job training survival rate much higher.

That is how I understand it.

VooDoo · « **Reply #43 on:** May 10, 2004, 01:46:42 AM »

In short...an air force having such "superb" (on the paper) fighters and a much better pilot base, and yet standing such heavy losses against a largely overnumbered enemy with so many green pilots and "inferior" (again, on the paper) aircraft has simply no explanation at all...
VVS recieved only 769 La-7 till November 44. And around 1000 Yak-3. There were some troubles with new planes. Even some groundings. All that history with weak wing cover... And, on the other hand, there were thousands of good but old Yak-9. I hope that nobody will claim that all those VVS loses were La-7 and Yak-3 ? It were mostly Yak-9s and IL-2s...

VooDoo · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2004, 01:56:17 AM »

As more and more Russian pilots survived to become veterans they were able to pass on the lessons they'd learned to the new pilots coming in and make the on the job training survival rate much higher.
One more thing. VVS concetrated its best pilots equiped with best planes, fuel, weapon available in the Guard Regiments. Call it Aces Regiments. They spearheaded all attacks and gave pilots of all other VVS units more chanses to survive and became battle hardened.