P38 nuts opinion asked on il2fbaep p38 fm

[Crumpp]

Need to post the rest of the 190A3 vs P38 flight test...........

The P38 would have had a rough time in any dogfight with a 190.  

It did not accellerate as fast (at all altitudes), couldn't change direction as fast (at all altitudes), couldn't outclimb or outdive the 190.  Below 22,000 feet in a dogfight the 190 held the cards except turning circle below 140mph IAS.  The 190 was faster up through 15,000 feet.  From 15,000 to 20,000 speed was equal and above 20,000 the P38 was faster. Climb was similar.  Down low the 190 outclimbed the P38, up at high alt the P38 gained the advantage.  The 190 was more manverable at all altitudes.

In fact up until the Spitfire Mk IVX Allied pilots were advised to fly a high speed in areas the FW190A operated in and not mix it up in a dogfight.  Even in a turn fight no allied fighters could follow a 190 when it rolled out of the turning circle and accellerated away using a shallow dive followed by a zoom climb.  Even test pilots who were anticipating the move and recieved warning over the radio found it impossible to follow.  That was if the 190 pilot was stupid and entered a turn fight.

Above 23000 feet EVERYTHING was superior to a FW-190.

Here is a nice quote from "The Luftwaffe Figther Force:  The view from the cockpit" on the p38.....



" It's main drawbacks were it's vunerability and it's lack of manuverability.  German fighters would always attack the P38 in preference to other allied fighters."


Crumpp

[BUG_EAF322]

so pork it there u got ur quote at last.`
no wonder i like killin lw fighters the most

[OLtos]

I didn't get a chance to read all the posts but I notced a great deal of this discussion was driven by the BAC test of export P-38s.   In case no one has said it yet:The lightning twos did not have turbochargers mouted as Turbo chargers were consideted a big US military secret.  So any discussion of high alt performance of EXPORT p38s should be read in this light.

The buffetting problem described by the Brits is compressability showing it's ugly head.  Compressability manifests itself at the extremely low temps of high alt flying.  These temperatures are lowest (as far as where 38s flew) in Northern Europe.   This explains why the 8th AF and the Brits seem to have such horrible problems in this area.  FYI the lower the temp the lower the mach number at which compression occurs,  the high speed buffeting is the first symptim of compression.

As for turngin ability.  If you really want to get into it I recommend two other sources Francis Dean's "Americas 100,000" and Martin Caiden's "P-38 The Fork Tailed Devil".  

Francis Dean gives, by far, the best at most detailed analysis of the problems of turning a P-38,  especially its virtues and vices as a dogfighter.

Its greatest virtue as a turner was that it absolutely would NOT begin rolling when it entered a high speed stall in a turn.  It could NOT do it,  Aside trom counter rotating engines canceling slipstream and Pfactor.  These counter rotating gyroscopes actually add positively to the stablity of the plane in the roll axis.

I highly recommend these two sources.   In my Not So Humble Opinion the 38 is grossly undermodeled on account of its weird instabilities in turns.

[HoHun]

Hi Oltos,

>I didn't get a chance to read all the posts but I notced a great deal of this discussion was driven by the BAC test of export P-38s.   In case no one has said it yet:The lightning twos did not have turbochargers mouted as Turbo chargers were consideted a big US military secret.  

If you had read the above posts, you'd have noticed that the BAC commented on the lag  of the turbos on the Lightning II - appreciate the subtle difference to "LACK of turbos" ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[gripen]

The Lightning II (in the B.A.C tests) had turbos (GE B-2) and the V-1710 F-series engines (L and R). Basicly it was very much same as the P-38F. The Lightning I had no turbos and the V-1710 C-series  engines.

Generally B.A.C test report on the Lightning II is a very good read for all interested on the P-38.

gripen

[Walker42]

B.A.C test report?

Not sure what that is, but the only lightning II ever produced (AF221) was immediately repainted and taken over by the US as a P-38F-13-10, then used in testing.   One test it participated in that I can remember off hand was the dropping of 2 torpedos.    
That lighnting II did have the counter rotating engines and turbosuperchargers.

The British tests on the Lightning were a Lightning I, and they knew already going into the tests that the Lightning I was unsatisfactory as a High altitude fighter.   That's why they ammended the contract prior to the test to produce the majority of the fighters as Lightning II's.    

From what I've read,  the Brits were using everything they could think of to get out of the lockheed contract.    They had to pay for P-38's at a time when Lend-lease aircraft were given away, and frankly they didn't want too.      That's why the Brits never flew lightnings, not because the lightning was unsatisfactory, but because they didn't want to pay for them.

Not to mention the fact that after Dec 7, 1941  the premier fighter in the US inventory was the Lightning and nobody (except the 8th AF due to old "BOMBER" thinking) could get enough of them.   Even if the Brits accepted the lightnings, there would of been a very slim chance that the US would have gave them away.

The introductions were,
Combat flaps were introduced on P-38F-15-LO.    

Dive flaps and power boosted ailerons were introduced on  P-38J-25-LO.


I still can't for the life of me understand how the Reputation of the Lightning got so tarnished.     It's a crime.

S!

[gripen]

Walker42,
Please read the report, it's scanned in the National Archives of Australia.

gripen

[Walker42]

Gripen,

Would you happen to have a direct link to it?  I'm trying the search feature and can not seem to find it.

Thanks,
S!

[gripen]

Walker42,
IIRC their search engine works just local day time. Just choose "Record search" in the main page and log in as a quest, then search for Lightning or something (can't remember,).

gripen

[Walker42]

ok, cool

I was using this search page http://www.naa.gov.au/search/search.html      It must be searching something else,   I'll check the other one later.


Thanks

[gripen]

Walker42,
Now it's open. Search for "Lightning Aircraft" and  you  16 hits. The one to look is "RAAF Command Headquarters - Lightning aircraft". B.A.C. part starts from page 14.

gripen

[Ecliptik]

Lightning II?  The only Lightning II I know of is the F-22 Lightning II, later becoming the Raptor.  

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
To the best of my recollection, the P-38F didn't have any dive breaks.  Hell, it didn't have any combat flaps (Fowler flaps), those didn't come until I think the H model.



ack-ack

Seeings that we are building a 38 (not gonna say which model, but I can answer on the early aircraft quite nicely)     anyways, the difference between flap tracks (the deployment paths) on the 38F and the L is hardly noticeable.  The flaps almost identicle, few different inspection panels, and a slightly thinner profile.  So, that leads me to believe that they are identical, BUT, I do not believe their is a "combat flap setting" in the cockpit of the 38F, so that itself might be the difference.  Plus, unless there was MASSIVE redesign issues of the wing TE that I have never seen, they are still fowler flaps.  The major wing redesign of the early 38's vs the
lates are the removal of the turbo air cooling from the otbd wing leading edge, and placing it under the nacelles necitating the redesign to the larger cowls.  This also allowed the replacement of le intercoolers with fuel tanks the full length of the otbd wing leading edge.  Think of the spilt leading edge on the lates (hinged access) and the smooth earlys!

The "dive brakes" (actually small flaps) where introduced with the J-25, 30 series and were retrofits, they are standard on the L model.

[Walker42]

Nice find Gripen!

I still haven't had the time to go through it, but did find the time to save each pic to my HD.  

One thing that caught my eye is that they said they tested on a AF222 as well.   I've always read that the only Lightning II was the AF221,   definitely interesting there.   I can't wait to get a chance and read through the whole thing.

From what I've read, and my understanding on the fowler flaps was that all Lightnings had fowler flaps.   However, the combat flaps was the first notch on the flaps where the fowlers would only half extend, allowing increased maneuverability up to approximately 250mph IAS.

These combat flaps were introduced on the P-38F-15-LO, and strengthened on the P-38G.

All the sources I've read could be wrong though.

[Walker42]

found a good description on the p-38's flaps...

Flaps
Fowler flaps were part of the initial design.  

The MANEUVER setting was introduced in mid-production of the F model (F-15).  The MANEUVER setting pitched the flaps down 8 degrees and were often used for take-off and more importantly, combat, to decrease turning radius.  Thus, this setting of the main flap system was sometimes called "COMBAT" flaps.  

When the flaps lever was moved beyond the MANEUVER setting, the flaps would roll back on rails while also increasing pitch.  Thus, the flaps were really a two-part, or hybrid design:  1) conventional hinged flap, and 2) Fowler.

(Image removed from quote.)

Besides the MANEUVER setting, there were to two other automatic settings: "UP" "DOWN."  By manually adjusting the flaps lever, the pilot could also set the flaps anywhere between.