Author Topic: 109 it fly wrong  (Read 17011 times)

Offline Kweassa

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #180 on: May 17, 2004, 10:48:03 AM »
gripen, but would a certain characteristic quirk of the plane, would go so far as to become a basis for claiming this particular plane type obsolete? Despite when relative performance comparison shows that it is in many areas, not just one,  actually superior to its main contendor?

 That's really the opinion I am looking for.

 

 
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As to the 109's being obsolete, it's the Luftwaffe saying their planes were not up to par with the late war Allied fighters not Crumpp. I just quoted what's in the book. Looking at the Luftwaffe's situation in '44 I'd have to conclude that the 109 wasn't the best choice for them. They needed a replacement with better performance and more pilot friendly qualities. I will believe the published experts NOT a bunch of zealots on the BB.


 Is that a step back? Because "that wasn't the best choice for them" definately does not imply the same thing you did when this discussion began, as in "obsolete by 1943. period".

 Now what you're saying smells like "I don't know for sure, but thats what the experts say so I'll believe them".

 But then again, how would you know who were right and wrong, when you still refuse any specific performance comparison?

 Experts could be wrong about things, Crumpp. We may not have the best of data available, but we'd sure love to try and see just exactly what your 'experts' said, on which data and which analysis, comparing which stuff, so they came to the conclusion it was "obsolete".

 Or better yet, maybe I could go ask someone like butch2k - who probably owns the most compiled data on 109s besides everyone else. If he says "it's not obsolete", then are you gonna change your opinion?

 Man, that would be really something fun to try on our behalf.

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #181 on: May 17, 2004, 11:46:41 AM »
By no means is it a step back.  The 109 was outclassed by late war allied fighters.  The Luftwaffe knew it.


Crumpp

Offline Glasses

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #182 on: May 17, 2004, 11:59:09 AM »
Outclassed? more like outnumbered :D

Besides real men Fly Antons :D

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #183 on: May 17, 2004, 01:05:31 PM »
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Has nothing to do with being a "sore loser" and everything to do with some folks absolutely denying the truth to the bitter end in spite of the facts.


You have NO facts, Crump. It`s just an endless flow of BS coing out of you.

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I quote Carson's conclusions about the stick forces of the 109 and the rudder forces being a problem.


Carson quotes a RAE report of an early 109E variant, and wants to apply that to different models. Wrong. Crumpp tries the same. Wrong.


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Everyone says "Ohh Carsons's an idiot and your one too for quoting him because he got the drag co-efficients wrong on the 109!


And they are right. :D


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So I quote at least 3 other sources pointing to the 109's shortcomings and stick forces. 1 is Eric Browns Enemy Test Flight,


Uhm yes. You misquote them, that`s right. Eric Brown says the rudder forces, aileron forces were light. Crump simply reversed that.


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Gollob only called the stick forces and maneuverability of a 109F4 at high speeds "unacceptable".


...yet even in British evaluation trials they state the Bf 109F was dived to no less than 420 mph IAS,  where it could still do 'fairly tight turns'. More ? 109K manaul states that from a 850 km/h, 45 degree dive, the altitude required for recovery is no more than 400 meters. Hardly unaccaptable, even when we are talking the most critized control, the elevator.



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Galland states the 109 was obsolete by 1943.


No, he does not.

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So when Willey Radinger says the 109 was long in the tooth in 1944 and had a rough time with the late war allied fighters, I believe him.


As should everybody else, provided Radinger really said the things you put in his mouth. Well, he didn`t.


As for the Moron, per all sources I have seen, P-51D appeared in June 1944 in the 4th Fighter Group, not February, which would be rather surprising, as the P-51D production started only in february 1944, not to mention there was few Mustang FGs around, ie. 354th FG did combat mission in P-51Bs in December 1943 the earliest, the second being 357th FG in 11th Feb 1944, then the third 363rd in February 23rd etc - still just P-51Bs and Cs even in February 1944, no sign of Ds just being built in US factories.

unlikely that any planes saw service already in the same month.. For all practical puproses, the introduction of P-51D happened at the same month as the G-14/AS (June), a bit later than the similair G-6/AS (April or even sooner), and not much sooner than the G-10 and K-4s appearance to German units (October 1944, just 3-4 months later).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 01:40:43 PM by VO101_Isegrim »

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #184 on: May 17, 2004, 01:39:54 PM »
Hi Crumpp,

>Reread the post HoHun.  I am not claiming that 1/3 of the total losses is caused by landing and take off accidents.  Just that it is MUCH higher than 5 percent!!!

Well, the only source you had for that claim was your prejudice while I actually evaluated the JG26 loss list. Since you're preferring prejudice over facts, I'll just consider you a troll and put you on my ignore list now.

For those who are genuinely interested, here's a list of all pilots who became casualties during take-off and landing incidents in JG26. These are 57 casualties out of 1264 total. The list is ordered alphabetically by last name.

Adam, Heinz-Günther, 12/20/42; Barthel, Alfred, 8/11/42; Bleich, Hans, 6/6/44; Bock, Otto, 3/25/45; Boeke, Günther, 2/7/45; Burckhardt, Gottfried, 12/18/44; Chemnitzer, Max, 10/7/44; Delor, Rudolf, 12/27/44; Dethloff, Hans-Heinz, 6/2/41; Dieterlen, Georg, 10/4/44; Dingler, Günther, 3/8/45; Dovnar, Alfred, 2/13/42; Effelsberg, Andreas, 2/23/45; Ellenrieder, Xaver, 4/16/45; Falkner, Gerhard, 4/19/43; Fast, Hans-Joachim, 3/7/43; Fröhlich, Hans-Jürgen, 11/17/41; Gehrke, Heinz, 9/11/44; Grams, Willi, 6/13/43; Hager, Robert, 1/20/43; Kemethmüller, Heinz, 11/4/44; Klingelhöfer, Paul, 2/12/45; Kolodzie, Herbert, 2/8/44; Kopp, Walter, 8/26/44; Langer, Alfred, 4/6/45; Langhammer, Gerhard, 5/12/44; Leder, Josef, 10/15/44; Leinberger, Rudolf, 4/5/45; Leitz, Emil, 7/28/43; Lentz, Ludwig, 5/3/43; Lindelaub, Friedrich, 11/11/43; Linecker, Alois, 10/21/41; Lyhs, Heinrich, 5/16/41; Mathony, Werner, 12/23/44; Melzer, Hermann, 5/10/41; Mietusch, Klaus, 4/12/44; Müller, Johann, 3/6/44; Nels, Franz, 12/10/40; Nieter, Heinz, 8/23/44; Oltmanns, Rudolf, 9/28/43; Paul, Arthur, 10/7/44; Przybyl, Leo, 2/10/45; Quitter, Fritz, 11/2/44; Richter, Adolf, 8/13/44; Schlenker, Erich, 6/9/44; Schlösser, Dietrich, 8/17/44; Schmelzer, Philipp, 1/15/44; Schmidtke, Günther, 8/17/43; Scholz, Erwin, 9/3/43; Scholz, Walter, 10/2/43; Schöndorf, Otto, 12/3/44; Schwan, Werner, 4/6/43; Steinberg, Günther, 10/4/43; Tebbe, Willi, 8/24/44; Thuy, Ernst, 3/25/45; Vogel, Richard, 3/24/44; Winter, Werner, 6/13/44

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #185 on: May 17, 2004, 02:35:53 PM »
Well, my apoligies Barbi.:eek: :rolleyes: Being you usual, insulting self, still.:)

The D started to arrive in March 44.:) Since there was no real difference between the performance of the B/C/D/K, it is just another attempt on your part, to bs us.:)  When the 51 showed up over Berlin in Feb 44, Herr Meyer knew the 'game' was over.

The G-14 production began in July 44, not June. The AS was only about 1 in 6 of G-14 production and was spread out along the whole production series. Even the larger Fo987 oil cooler was not installed in all a/c, reducing the power output potential of the engine.

As for your AS, a little snippet about the A/AS engines.

"the increase in boost the supercharger proved not up to the task, being unable to maintain the boost at a high altitude."  Seems you are bsing some more with your performance claims.:)

It will be nice when Butch's 109 book will be published so that the true facts can be shown over your lies.


Now, where were all those thousands of a/c the Germans had, to bring the JGs up to full establishment strength?

Offline butch2k

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #186 on: May 17, 2004, 03:31:50 PM »
When i say that the supercharger was not up to the task it appears on boost higher than 1.8ata, as the critical alt is severely reduced when running on 1.98ata on the DB605DC.
If the plans to go for 2.3ata had been followed, there would have been a necessity to change the supercharger design.

G-14 production began in August 44 with 440 being produced, but some G-6/MW50 were produced before the official designation was changed to G-14.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 03:36:09 PM by butch2k »

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #187 on: May 17, 2004, 03:44:01 PM »
Kweasa,
I have not called the Bf 109 obsolote.  In the terms of raw performance it was certainly pretty good at low and medium altitudes throughout war, at high altitude the allies had clear advantage from spring 1942 onwards (when the two stage Merlins and American turbo engines reached service). IMHO the main problem with the Bf 109 was that it was too small airframe to succesfully carry required weapon and fuel load in the last months of the war;  same powerplant in a bit larger airframe would have been able to do required tasks (say bomber intercepting or tactical fighter) better while still maintaining good performance (as example of the P-51 and the Spitfire proves).

gripen

Offline Glasses

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #188 on: May 17, 2004, 04:06:16 PM »
If i seem to recall  Galland suggestion  to the 109 being put out of production was because it required much more pilot skill and training to perform well in the aircraft, against the 190 that  had much more simpler controls ,better visibility ,wider tracklanding gear and was much more suited for the  Bomber interception task than the 109 and of course was much more rugged.

 Yet he flew on the 109  up until they sat his butt down as General of the day fighters and when he came back up  he came back in 262s :D  if I'm not mistaken.

:lol

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2004, 04:13:22 PM »
Well, here (in a flight sim board) most people are interested about fighter versus fighter fighting but in the last months of the war fighting against enemy fighters was pure waste of men, planes, fuel and ammo for Luftwaffe.

gripen

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2004, 05:28:31 PM »
Points of interest:

ad 1, High speed handling:




ad 2, As for the AS supercharger was not up to the task...  really, the single stage AS and D engines outperformed the two-stage Merlins in power output at altitude, ie. the DB 605AS FTH height being 8000m, higher than any of the Merlin 6x series, and putting out apprx. 100 HP more, at much lower consumption etc.

As for the critical altitude of the engine being 'reduced', it`s rather irrevelant IMHO, the altitude power output remained the same, just at higher outputs yielded more power at low altitude; a limiting factor of course, the supercharger to extend the extra boost range. The performance would be the same, a K-4 would make just as well 680 km/h at 1.8ata at 10 000 m, and 680 km/h at 10 000 m with 1.98ata max boost, the only difference being an improvement of speed (~13-15km/h)between SL (594 km/h to 607 km/h) up to 7500m. Even at 2.3ata, the HA performance would be the very same - still680 km/h at 10 000m, even though the speed would further increase below 6000m, to about 640 km/h  or so at SL... so I really don`t think it`s appropriate to speak about lack of s/c performance, since the s/c was well capable of creating VERY high performance at HAs. Lowered FTH is a natural thing to happen with increased boosts.

Same thing happened to Merlins, ie. Merlin 66 was unable to maintain max. boost after only 500 ft at 150 grade fuel and MS grade etc.

ad 3, Compared to the G-14 being produced only in August 1944, the Allies already captured imtact examples in mid July, ie see the 109lair for info, but Knoke`s diary already talks of Bf 109Gs 'with methanol injection and large compressors', ie. with high altitude 1800PS DB 605ASM as early as April 1944.

ad 4, "Even the larger Fo987 oil cooler was not installed in all a/c, reducing the power output potential of the engine"

Reducing? How? Power output was the same whatever oil cooler was installed.

ad 5, The AS was only about 1 in 6 of G-14 production and was spread out along the whole production series.

Rather interesting math, ie. considering at least 1835 G-14/AS were built, out of appx. 3000-4000 G-14s in total, which means every SECOND G-14 was a G-14/AS.

As a matter of fact, the output of the Regensburg factory was 1373 G-14/AS vs. 479 G-14s up to end of 1944 etc.

That similiar hysteria already caused Milo a permament banning on ubi forums, hopefully such action doesn`t wait for long here either. Ever since at ubi discussions are much more productive w/o provocations etc. that set the talk on sidetrack.



ad 5,

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"In the terms of raw performance it was certainly pretty good at low and medium altitudes throughout war, at high altitude the allies had clear advantage from spring 1942 onwards (when the two stage Merlins and American turbo engines reached service). "


Hardly, it was rather more contested. In 1942, the Bf 109G had clearly better performance than the MkIX Spitfire at speed at all altitudes, including HA. It also outclimbed them, though at very HA the Spit had some climb advantage. At least on the paper, reality was something different,that there were rather few MkIXs around and many 109Gs.

It could match the speed of any turbocharged US desing of 1942 or 1943 - P-38s or P-47s, and outclimb them at all altitudes. P-47s increased their speed with the introduction of paddle blade props in 1943, but they were still not much faster, and were hopelessly outclimbed. P-38s never become any faster. Not counting GM-1 carrier Bf 109s of course, which would throughly swap the picture of HA performance again, but leave those special variants alone for the time being.

From 1943 onwards, most Spits produced were low altitude versions, with slightly worser performance at HA than previous MkIXFs, and close match in speed to 109Gs at HA - the picture did not change in their respect until early 1944, when the German began to use their /AS powered Bf 109s, which considerably outperformed any Spit IX`s speed at altitude. In fact, these high altitude 109s (G-6/AS, G-14/As, G-10, K-4) could cruise faster than the maximum 5min limit speed of Spitfires at those altitude at 8-9000m. :D The P-51 was, only comparable in speed, and again, inferior in climb. The general picture again, for 1944, is that the USAAF has types that are as fast as Bf 109s a HA as well, though outperformed by them in acceleration and climb rate, whereas 98% of the RAF`s planes simple can`t hope to catch Bf 109s anywhere above 16000 ft.

It appears the reality behind the claim 'clear Allied HA advantage from `42 onwards' is rather more complicated as some may imagine. So much that it can be as well the exact opposite case, ie.  for 1944.

ad 6, As for the claims about small airframe being a limiting factor on the 109s - this was never proven in history. Fact is that they didn`t mount more fuel for the simple reason they didn`t need to, milage of the DB engines increased through the war, as newer models operated on higher CR, higher FTH with leaner mixtures but allowed for higher cruise speeds, as opposed to developments of R-R, which turned into fuel hogs, and required the increase of fuel capacity in late Spitfires by 50%, whereas range remained the same and endurance was even less than before; Bf 109F/G/K models continued to have more range on less fuel than Spitfires - something not only due to the increasing thirst of Merlins, but also because the fact that the larger airframe also creates more drag - no1 reason why Messerscmitt choosed a new way, high effiency via advanced solutions instead of relying on old school solutions.
Fuel tankage had to be increased due to the flaw of the Merlin powerplant, not by free choice. The added weight considerably detoriated handling characteristics and performance on the later Spits (and the same thing happened on P-51s with rear fusalge tank to maximise range - I always wondered how well would the P-51D do with a DB 605D instead of the Merlin 67 ), something that was certainly not desired by Messerscmitt, but thanks to the work of DB, he had other choices.
As the weapons being mounted, Bf 109s could mount up to 3 cannons, 20mm or even 30mm ones, and two heavy MGs - good  enough as Allied bomber losses show. I certainly would not call an airframe unable to be armed effectively, which could carry no less than three MK 108s, and could also mount an MK 103, Hispanos etc with ease.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 05:56:30 PM by VO101_Isegrim »

Offline Kweassa

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2004, 05:42:43 PM »
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Kweasa,

 I have not called the Bf 109 obsolote. In the terms of raw performance it was certainly pretty good at low and medium altitudes throughout war, at high altitude the allies had clear advantage from spring 1942 onwards (when the two stage Merlins and American turbo engines reached service).


 So you do agree that a certain characteristic flaw or a problem, is not enough to brand a certain plane "obsolete", right?

 That's really all I wanted to know.

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2004, 06:22:13 PM »
Kweasa,
I definately agree in the terms of raw performance otherwise it depends on task.

Dear Isegrim,
I must wonder do you actually believe your own statements?

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2004, 08:57:51 PM »
Kweasa,

There is no doubt the 109 was not the right plane for the Luftwaffe in the last years of the war.  It was a decade old design which had undergone an amazing transformation from it's original design.  As Eric Brown says "longevity has never been a fighter's quality".

Galland call it Obsolete.  My scanner is broken so you can buy the book "The Luftwaffe Force:  A view from the Cockpit" and look it up yourself.  It's a good book and worth the money.  When or If you do I would appreciate hearing from you on this subject again.

Glasses,

You need to check your History.  Galland took over as General of Dayfighters during the transition period for I/JG26 into 190's.  He in fact did fly a 190 when he could "sneak" away for a combat sortie.  There is even a pic in JG 26 War Diaries of him in the cockpit.  It was Dora's who protected JV 44's Me 262's in the "Galland Circus".  I am sure he could have had 109K4's do it if he wanted.

Isegrim,

Let not cherry pick.  He did say the stick forces were light at the 109's "disappointingly slow" cruising speed.  At high speed however things were very different.  The 109's stick forces became "unacceptable" above 700 Km/H.

The control in question has been the rudder not the elevator.

Everyone I have quoted said exactly what I printed.  That particular quote is on Page 7 of "Messerschmitt Bf 109F-K Development, Testing, and Production" by Willy Radinger and Wolfgang Otto.  It's in the first paragraph second column near the top of the page and was written in Augsburg, October 98.  

Crumpp

Offline Kweassa

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2004, 09:08:52 PM »
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There is no doubt the 109 was not the right plane for the Luftwaffe in the last years of the war. It was a decade old design which had undergone an amazing transformation from it's original design. As Eric Brown says "longevity has never been a fighter's quality".


 Same thing with the Spitfire, which ancestry goes as far back to the Supermarine sea planes that won the Schneider Cup championships.

 The Spitfire is actually very simular plane to the 109s. Light plane with high torque, narrow landing gears, poor frontal vision during take-offs and landings like any other tail dragger.

 It was known for problematic performance at higher speeds, which was halfway solved in the roll axis by clipping the wings. It was a short-ranged point-defense inteceptor type of fighter, clearly almost identical in basic concept as the Bf109.

 Throughout the war contemporary 109s and Spitfires have maintained a rivalry where each phase of development shifted the advantage from this plane to that continuously, which in overall made the two fighter types a very well matched set of planes.

 Latewar Spitfires, like the early ones,  verily "match" the late-war 109s.

 Nobody to this day, calls the Spitfire an obsolete design, Crumpp.


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Galland call it Obsolete. My scanner is broken so you can buy the book "The Luftwaffe Force: A view from the Cockpit" and look it up yourself. It's a good book and worth the money. When or If you do I would appreciate hearing from you on this subject again.


 Galland also said "Give me Spitfires".  He's a man known for tough comments and harsh words.

 So what's the context of it? Care to describe it?