Author Topic: 109 it fly wrong  (Read 15949 times)

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #375 on: June 08, 2004, 01:30:38 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>I quess this is a human error from your side?

"Human error" is worlds apart from "falsifying" or "data manipulation". I'd say it's time for an apology now.

Note that in your first attempts to add the FAF data to my chart,  you got two of the data points wrong by 10 km/h, so you can hardly complain if I'm off by 6 km/h.

Compared to the average "4.5.43" graph, the FAF data points show differences of -14 km/h @ 7110 m and +15 km/h @ 9110 m anyway - just to add a little perspective.

If you're interested, my offer to send you the complete spreadsheet I used for my calculation still stands. I'd be quite happy to have it checked thoroughly by an independend thinker  :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #376 on: June 08, 2004, 04:39:24 PM »
HoHun,
Please calm down now. After all it was your own error which caused all this.

You can send the sheet to me and I'll see if I can understand it but don't expect too much. As you might have noticed, I avoid calculations (expect for checking valitdity of the data) and prefer documented stuff. This thread is a good example what a small and simple error can cause to a calculation.

gripen

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #377 on: June 08, 2004, 11:37:41 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>Please calm down now. After all it was your own error which caused all this.

My error caused a 6 km/h difference.

You accused me me of "falsification" and "data manipulation" - two very serious but completely unfounded accusations, totally out of proportion for a rather minor inaccuracy.

From a decent guy, I'd expect a public apology for such a public accusation, without any attempts to wiggle his way out of it. I'd be quite ready to forget about "all this" afterwards.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #378 on: June 09, 2004, 04:19:18 AM »
HoHun,
Nonsense. Your total error at 10100m CINA in the case of the accidentally manipulated (or falsified) FAF curve is about 4km/h if compared to  allready false value and about 24km/h if compared to  real value which  you apparently did not want to believe  despite I had directly quoted FAF report before.

In the case of the calculated curve, the errors  are about 9 and 29km/h respectively. In addition the values between 1st and 2nd FTH are wrong because you did not know how the variable speed system is adjusted.

The situation is very simple. You did the manipulated the curve, the evidence is above. It does not matter if you did it accidentally or purposedly.

gripen
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 04:22:12 AM by gripen »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #379 on: June 09, 2004, 12:58:03 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>The situation is very simple. You did the manipulated the curve, the evidence is above. It does not matter if you did it accidentally or purposedly.

Sure, an accidental 6 km/h error in reading a figure off a chart is the same as purposefully falsifying data ... <- Irony, as I have to point out in case you're actually as naive as you pretend to be.

You're on my ignore list now because your lame excuse insults my intelligence.

Kind regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #380 on: June 09, 2004, 03:21:08 PM »
HoHun,
Actually your  error is two fold; 200m altitude increase for given speed which is allready 20km/h too fast due to error in the FAF chart. Overall your chart has pretty much nothing to do with reality above FTH. In addition you are unable to see anything wrong in your actions despite all this  is caused by your own errors and unability accept data which does not support your agenda.

Thanks for putting me to ignore list.

gripen

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #381 on: June 10, 2004, 10:49:30 AM »
Gripen, there is only one valid phrase to describe your one-man crusade here : pathetic. It`s so typical from you, anybody who reads through your post can only find only one source for the Gripen`s postings : other postings from the same Gripen, his misconceptions, wannabe versions only 'supported' by his other misconceptions and wannabe versions. Your bias vs. the 109 series is plain obvious from your post history, you show a pattern of dismissing any source that would disagree with your conceptions.

Accusing HoHun with bias, manipulation and other BS is just plain miserable on your part.

HoHun, and I this perception of mine would be widely agreed by those who ever seen his post, is one with the most balanced and open minded member of aviation forums. Few could match him in this respect. You will never be able to. He was right in putting you on an Ignore List; I will do the same, as there`s nothing to learn from you, even though you may have many good sources, but it all becomes useless when it`s represented through a zealot blinded by his own self-righteousness and I-cant-be-wrong attitude. Certainly it`s a waste of time to deal with you at all.

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #382 on: June 10, 2004, 02:25:37 PM »
Dear Isegrim,
The evidence is above: I posted sources, showed data as it is and pointed out errors.

Other side choosed to create calculation model which uses apparently two parameters: FTH and speed at the highest altitude. In this case charted speed at 10100m is relatively highest (due to error in the chart) so the results for other altitudes above FTH will therefore be higher than in real life.

Even without manipulated data  the results of this kind of model are obiviously biased because performance above FTH depends on just two values.  The better aproach would be to  fit curve by using  least squares method which balances errors (there are other methods too).

Note that other side  have not corrected his errors nor errors in the data set despite these have been pointed out with documentation. The reason is obivious; if the errors are corrected  others side's theory on speed of the Bf 109G is gone. And this is probably the real reason the other side choosed to leave discussion.

Thanks for putting me to your ignore list.

gripen

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #383 on: June 10, 2004, 03:04:21 PM »
Hi Isegrim,

Thanks for your support! :-)

Nice to hear you appreciate my posts in spite of our occasional disagreements - a bit of constructive tension is a good thing in my opinion :-)

(I'd also like the thank the people who sent me supportive e-mails. To answer your questions - no, I don't think I'm wasting my time here, and yes, I'll provide further details on my point of view :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Seeker

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #384 on: June 10, 2004, 03:40:24 PM »
Shame.

Two of the guys who's writings here I respect the most getting their knickers in a twist....


Gentlemen; release your sphincters.

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #385 on: June 10, 2004, 05:24:52 PM »
Hi everyone,

Due to your requests, I'm going to try and explain a bit about scientific standard procedures, as this is really useful stuff if you're dealing with aircraft tests, and how they apply to the Me 109G-2 discussion.

First of all, if we're talking about "errors", science usually discerns between "random" errors and "systematical" errors.

"Random" errors are due to inaccuracies both in the experiment itself as well as introduced by the observing instruments. Random errors mean that each repetition of the experiment will yield a different set of results which - depending on the accuracy of testing procedure and equipment - will be more or less similar to those from other repetitions of the same experiment. To keep the inaccuracies introduced by random error down to a minimum, experiments often have to be repeated multiple times to yield an average result that can be used with some sort of confidence. (There are mathematical concepts for this kind of confidence :-)

"Systematic" errors are errors that would be predictable and correctable if you figured out their reasons. The problem is, you never know if you have figured out all of the errors in your experiment. Unlike random errors, systematic errors don't yield varying results with repetitions of the experiment with "everything else being equal", but rather give the results an identical bias to one side or the other.

Let's have a look at the FAF Me 109G-2 data now:

http://www.x-plane.org/users/hohun/me109g-2b.jpg

First, concentrate on the yellow graph. That's the data from Gripen's table, with the 10 km value taken from Gripen's narrative on his request. Below full throttle height, everything looks well, but from full throttle height up, you see a rather kinked graph.

Are the kinks due to systematic errors? Probably not. To begin with, the table provided by Gripen seems to be accounting for some systematical errors, like the compressibility error of the airspeed indicator, the error of the engine tachometer, the difference between standard and real atmosphere etc.

More importantly, if the kinks in the graph were due to systematic errors, the test aircraft's engine would have to be considered seriously screwed up because it loses power dramatically above full throttle height, then sustains and even increases power beyond that of a properly performing engine up to 9 km before dropping dramatically again. Such an aircraft obviously would be unsuitable for testing, and if tested, completely non-representative for the tested type.

While it's impossible to exclude that the FAF flight tests could have suffered from unrecognized systematical errors, the kinks in the curve you're seeing are probably due to random errors only. Remember that you reduce the impact of random errors by repeating an experiment multiple times. From the caption of the table Gripen provided, it seems that the Me 109G-2 data in that table was collected in just 50 min, which probably means that every data point was measured only once. That leaves the results wide open for random errors.

(It's no suprise that the random errors are recognizable so clearly above full throttle height since specific excess power is so poor that it takes a long time to accelerate to top speed, and minor disturbances of the experiment have the greatest effect up there.)

Now have a look at the red and blue graphs now that are labelled "lower/upper error boundary". They define a +/- 15 km/h envelope around the "5.4.43" data and include all FAF test data (except the 10 km value Gripen requested a downgrade for). The actual speed of the FAF Me 109G-2 probably (but not definitely) should be expected to be within the envelope defined by the red and the blue graph.

As you can see, my speed prediction is safely within these bounds. It's close to the upper boundary, but doesn't exceed them, so that the FAF data points do not contradict my prediction.

Considering the random error inherent in the FAF test, it's completely pointless to try and argue against my prediction based on a single data point because the accuracy for the FAF test simply doesn't allow it. All in all, the FAF data just provides five measurements of performance from full throttle height up, which is slightly better than a single data point but still insufficient to call any prediction within (or somewhat beyond) these bounds impossible, or even just improbable.

Judging by the FAF data, my prediction may not be the most probable one (which should be supposed to be the average graph the FAF provided, of course), but it's definitely not an unlikely one either.

The exact math would be rather complicated, but you might find it interesting that in the age of slide-rules, the performance graph often resulted from bending a rubber-encased lead rod into the approximate shape of a typical performance curve, and after using Eyeball Mk I to decide whether the optimum fit had been achieved, fusing the lead rod as a ruler to draw the curve :-)

With data sets like the one provided by Gripen, you wouldn't get much closer to the truth with complex math, anyway.

So I hope I've now managed to explain why I couldn't be any less impressed by the failure of my prediction to match the FAF data above full throttle height :-)

Only one data point from the FAF data has actually provided information to be used by my prediction, and that's top speed at full throttle height. The rest is based on a decent physics model and a DB605A power chart. Both might contain errors resulting in an unrealistic estimate, but comparison to this particular set of FAF data will not help to find out if that's the case. And the physics model definitely is unbiased - it was developed for analysis of the P-40 :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline hitech

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #386 on: June 10, 2004, 06:20:23 PM »
Whats a physics model?

HiTech

Offline joeblogs

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standard errors
« Reply #387 on: June 10, 2004, 08:57:03 PM »
When I saw the origonal plots I wondered about the standard errors of these estimates. I think its under appreciated how noisy these numbers can be when only 1 or 2 tests are run under any set of parameters.

U.S. engine makers always distributed power curves with a disclaimer of 5%...

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi everyone,

Due to your requests, I'm going to try and explain a bit about scientific standard procedures, as this is really useful stuff if you're dealing with aircraft tests, and how they apply to the Me 109G-2 discussion.

First of all, if we're talking about "errors", science usually discerns between "random" errors and "systematical" errors.

"Random" errors are due to inaccuracies both in the experiment itself as well as introduced by the observing instruments. Random errors mean that each repetition of the experiment will yield a different set of results which - depending on the accuracy of testing procedure and equipment - will be more or less similar to those from other repetitions of the same experiment. To keep the inaccuracies introduced by random error down to a minimum, experiments often have to be repeated multiple times to yield an average result that can be used with some sort of confidence. (There are mathematical concepts for this kind of confidence :-)

"Systematic" errors are errors that would be predictable and correctable if you figured out their reasons. The problem is, you never know if you have figured out all of the errors in your experiment. Unlike random errors, systematic errors don't yield varying results with repetitions of the experiment with "everything else being equal", but rather give the results an identical bias to one side or the other.

Let's have a look at the FAF Me 109G-2 data now:

http://www.x-plane.org/users/hohun/me109g-2b.jpg

First, concentrate on the yellow graph. That's the data from Gripen's table, with the 10 km value taken from Gripen's narrative on his request. Below full throttle height, everything looks well, but from full throttle height up, you see a rather kinked graph.

Are the kinks due to systematic errors? Probably not. To begin with, the table provided by Gripen seems to be accounting for some systematical errors, like the compressibility error of the airspeed indicator, the error of the engine tachometer, the difference between standard and real atmosphere etc.

More importantly, if the kinks in the graph were due to systematic errors, the test aircraft's engine would have to be considered seriously screwed up because it loses power dramatically above full throttle height, then sustains and even increases power beyond that of a properly performing engine up to 9 km before dropping dramatically again. Such an aircraft obviously would be unsuitable for testing, and if tested, completely non-representative for the tested type.

While it's impossible to exclude that the FAF flight tests could have suffered from unrecognized systematical errors, the kinks in the curve you're seeing are probably due to random errors only. Remember that you reduce the impact of random errors by repeating an experiment multiple times. From the caption of the table Gripen provided, it seems that the Me 109G-2 data in that table was collected in just 50 min, which probably means that every data point was measured only once. That leaves the results wide open for random errors.

(It's no suprise that the random errors are recognizable so clearly above full throttle height since specific excess power is so poor that it takes a long time to accelerate to top speed, and minor disturbances of the experiment have the greatest effect up there.)

Now have a look at the red and blue graphs now that are labelled "lower/upper error boundary". They define a +/- 15 km/h envelope around the "5.4.43" data and include all FAF test data (except the 10 km value Gripen requested a downgrade for). The actual speed of the FAF Me 109G-2 probably (but not definitely) should be expected to be within the envelope defined by the red and the blue graph.

As you can see, my speed prediction is safely within these bounds. It's close to the upper boundary, but doesn't exceed them, so that the FAF data points do not contradict my prediction.

Considering the random error inherent in the FAF test, it's completely pointless to try and argue against my prediction based on a single data point because the accuracy for the FAF test simply doesn't allow it. All in all, the FAF data just provides five measurements of performance from full throttle height up, which is slightly better than a single data point but still insufficient to call any prediction within (or somewhat beyond) these bounds impossible, or even just improbable.

Judging by the FAF data, my prediction may not be the most probable one (which should be supposed to be the average graph the FAF provided, of course), but it's definitely not an unlikely one either.

The exact math would be rather complicated, but you might find it interesting that in the age of slide-rules, the performance graph often resulted from bending a rubber-encased lead rod into the approximate shape of a typical performance curve, and after using Eyeball Mk I to decide whether the optimum fit had been achieved, fusing the lead rod as a ruler to draw the curve :-)

With data sets like the one provided by Gripen, you wouldn't get much closer to the truth with complex math, anyway.

So I hope I've now managed to explain why I couldn't be any less impressed by the failure of my prediction to match the FAF data above full throttle height :-)

Only one data point from the FAF data has actually provided information to be used by my prediction, and that's top speed at full throttle height. The rest is based on a decent physics model and a DB605A power chart. Both might contain errors resulting in an unrealistic estimate, but comparison to this particular set of FAF data will not help to find out if that's the case. And the physics model definitely is unbiased - it was developed for analysis of the P-40 :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #388 on: June 11, 2004, 12:46:48 AM »
Hi Hitech,

>Whats a physics model?

Oh, that's just another word for my spreadsheet :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_(abstract)

"By abstract model (or conceptual model) we mean a theoretical construct that represents social or physical processes by a set of variables and a set of logical and quantitative relationships between them."

I could also call it an aircraft model but that would probably be misunderstood :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #389 on: June 11, 2004, 10:10:38 AM »
Well, this is going to strangest discussion for me so far; HoHun has ignored me but just after I have pointed out that his calculation is biased right from the beginning, he suddenly jumps in and gives another (longish) explanation for his actions.

We have no other starting point for the error analysis than the original and unaltered FAF data set as seen here again:




This set comes from the very same report as the chart, but this set does not contain that error which HoHun continously uses to support his agenda. The chart is made using this data set.


If we assume that these measurements have +/- 15 km/h error as HoHun suggests then we have following values for error boundaries:
 

If we ad them to HoHun's new version of the reality, then we have a following chart:



Now we can see that if we use real measured data and assume +/- 15 km/h error then the fastest speed the MT-215 could reach at 10100 m CINA was below errorneous 572 km/h value in the chart and actually HoHun's own version admits this.

Then we should analyze a bit HoHun's error boundary theory. For one reason or another he has choosen to use allredy altered set (manipulated during curve fitting) for his purposes ie he uses errornenous curve from the FAF chart, this is a big error because most of the measured points are lost and also real error boundary is lost from these altitudes. Therefore the error boundary is correct just at two altitudes 6420 and 8110 m CINA. It very obivious that HoHun does not understand the term error boundary or he has purposedly created errorneous chart. As an example we can look the error boundary at 9110 m CINA, real error range is 595-625 km/h but the chart gives about 580-610 km/h

But actually error boundaries have quite little to do with built in bias in the HoHun's original chart seen here:

 

Here HoHun uses the errorneous FAF curve as base for his analyze and actually managed to manipulate it during process. But lets assume for a moment that it's a "real" curve. For one reason or another he has chosen use the speed at highest altitude (572km/h at 10300m) for calculate new curve. Now it should be asked is there any particular reason to choose speed at highest measured altitude for calculation? If the calculation is correct then it should give very similar values despite what ever speed and altitude combination is choosed as a base for calculation. But if we look the new calculated speed curve, we can see that the only point where it crosses "real" curve is that highest altitude. Therefore it is easy to understand that by choosing any other speed and altitude combination would result worse results and therefore the method is biased right from the beginning.

Generally further HoHun goes in his explanations, deeper he sinks.

gripen