Author Topic: Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate  (Read 554 times)

Offline Misfit

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Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« on: June 11, 2004, 11:20:30 AM »
Im lookin  for some help with planes that have a superior roll rate but not turn rate. Im lookin for tips on how i would use the roll rate to my advantage.

Example
Im a 190 A8 Vs a Tiffie
Coalt and Same E.

Films would be a great help or any links to web sites for this kinda match up.

Thanks in advance for the help

Offline acetnt367th

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Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 11:32:59 AM »
Allows you the ability to rule in a sissors i.e. high roll rate not sustained turns.


Acetnt

Offline RTR

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Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 01:43:36 PM »
Fast roll rate means that you have a fast instantaneous turn rate.

IE, you will turn faster and harder at the very first turn, but you will not be able to sustain the rate of turn.

This gives you the opportunity to get off a quick snap shot, or as Acetnt pointed out, scissoring to shake someone off your six.

The Hog for example has a pretty quick roll rate (almost as quick as the 190). You just have to remember that you are not going to be able to turn with the better turning aircraft, like spits, N1Ks etc.

Apply a little geometry, keep your energy up and fly the angles, and if you are like me, all this will prolong your death by a few seconds.;)

Cheers,
RTR
The Damned

Offline Soda

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Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2004, 02:01:27 PM »
In such a fight, 190A8 vs Typhoon there are a number of different items you'd want to consider, roll rate is certainly a prominant one as the differential in ability in this area heavily favors the 190.

One concept to consider is "lift vectors". Consider this, when you are trying to follow someone you typically try and keep your wings "in plane" with his aircraft, correct?  That's because you're best turning potential is when you pull back on the stick (the whole aircraft is designed to generate maximum lift that way).  If you could therefore get your lift vectors out of synch (ie, the wings are not in plane) then your potential to generate lift in one direction is not matched to what his may be.  As Acetnt pointed out, scissors is such a maneuver but even a simple break turn can use this concept (when the differences in roll rate are so glaring as in this example).

The issue is, most people don't take advantage of this, they do simple "Spit"-ish breaks, rolling 90 degree left and then pulling back.  A 90 degree roll isn't that tough to match as the amount of differential doesn't have much time to build (ie, the Typhoon completes the 90 degree roll a little slower but not enough to make a dramatic impact on the fight).  Something different, like a 270 degree roll can have a more immediate impact, the Typhoon maybe being 90 degrees or more "behind" the 190.  The extra time the Typhoon uses to complete roll can be used by the 190 to do other things (like start turning, gaining a lead in turn-angle).  Using multiple reversals of roll can be super effective, making the Typhoon continuously trying to compensate for changes in rolling direction and paying less attention to everything else.  It's also typically more difficult to hit a rolling target because the correct lead angle for any shot is constantly changing and thus can cause people to "not shoot".  This is a way to exploit a bad trait in the Typhoon performance.

Roll rate is also very useful in the vertical or in vertical type maneuvers (High/Low Yo-Yo's) or rolling scissors.

If you want a demo, send me a note and I'll meet you in the TA one evening and we can run through some demonstrations and get some tips.  Learning roll-rate techniques really makes 190 drivers awesome vs dog-meat.

soda@hitechcreations.com

Offline RTSigma

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Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2004, 09:48:07 PM »
A good 190 manuever with a bogey on your six:

As he closes, roll 180 as if you're going to do a reversal, pull hard for about two seconds to fool him and he does his roll to follow. Immediately cut throttle and do another 180 and start a three second climb and then high yo-yo around as he attempts to re-correct.

If done right, he'll be floundering in manuevers to find you or close to stalling but remember, you built up alt and are now diving, punch the throttle and BnZ and then pull up again and repeat.

Sigma of VF-17 JOLLY ROGERS