Nobody can tell me...

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Toad

Maybe some crazy person could gain control of the hidden WMD? Seems like that was the case before the war.

So 800+ dead for no change sounds good to you? Not me. BAD decision. [/B]

If fact there has been a big change in case you haven't noticed. Now, there is no insane person in control of the country or it's weapons.

Yes, there has been a change and the 800 + did not die for no reason.

Your worst case scenario is just that, a scenario. It is a fact that before the war, an insane man was in control of any WMD and programs that existed.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by lada
while US' congres hear this  , world hear that


http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm

OK, already addressed this one.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm

Nothing from the UN in this one.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3135932.stm


"Mr Straw argued that the whole international community had agreed Iraq's weapons programmes had posed - the issue had been what to do about it. People did not need the ISG report for evidence of that threat, he said. It was already shown in volumes of reports from UN inspectors."

Hmmmm, doesn't sound like denial of WMD to me.




http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13445375_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-NO-WMD-IN-IRAQ--SAY-CIA-name_page.html

Dead link.


http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/60253.htm

"In an interview with Swedish Radio, Blix said the chemical weapons protective suits and gas masks found by coalition troops in Iraq several days ago could not prove that Iraq had WMD."

Nor does it prove they didn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/03/iraq/main603691.shtml

"Iraq apparently had no significant weapons of mass destruction after 1994, according to a newspaper account of a United Nations report due to be released Tuesday."

Uh, according to a newspaper account? How about just linking a UN document/report that says Iraq has no WMD?



Actualy do you see something odd about report by Mr. Blix and report for US's congres whitch were supposed to be based on UN words ?

edit damm ... somehow i posted wrong link... will find old one later.. hopefuly

Most funny thing are mobile laboratories.

[senna]

Originally posted by Toad Look chum, you come in here and slam my service because I was not a front-line combat troop.

No I did not. I said that it was big talk/opinion from someone who was on a jet thirty thousand feet up. I still feel the same however I erased the thread.

I take extreme umbrage to that. You still have not apologized for this insult.

Thats why I erased my post.

The implication is that NO ONE who wasn't in combat really "served". That's an incredible position, particulary given that nearly 90% of the Army forces in VN were in "support" roles.

I never said that. What I said has nothing to do with service. What I said pertains to opinions and personal experience. You lack the personal experience of jumping from a huey to trot off into the jungle. You lack the personal experience to comment on fighting techniques, habbits, and overall capability of front line ground units during that war. My father did those things and observed some things and I've spoken to him about what he saw (cas I asked) and felt.

I think even your father would tell you that you stepped on your crank with golf shoes here.

He would tell me that you are offended and feel insecure with your own service towards those who served on the ground in the infantry.

You have NEVER addressed the South VietNamese and the "willingness to fight for their own freedom" question, other than to say you disagree.

Fine, disagree.

I disagree with you here to some extent because an army is mobilized from the very top levels of gov. At the individual and group levels, most men behave the same when there is danger. They get scared and want to live. Their training allows them to become capable military units. The ARVN suffered alot of losses during the war. Of course there were some that did not do well though. My own father said that if you were there saw them fight, you would know that the war was won and the communists could not be beat anymore (late war).

But the only thing you've really posted in support slams on my service.

"And thank you for your own service."

in a post above, I thanked you for your service.

[Toad]

Originally posted by NUKE
. Now, there is no insane person in control of the country or it's weapons.

 

How do you KNOW that? How do you KNOW some crazy little bugger isn't sitting waiting for the US to pull out so that he can get the bad stuff out of the country to his terrorist buddies in Palm Beach?

Again, we didn't find and destroy ANYTHING of significance in the WMD lines we accused him of having.

If it is there, you have no clue who might have access to it.

No change, really. As you admit, his true WMD capability was unknown before the invasion.

It's still unknown. NO CHANGE.

[senna]

And BTW my father was trained by the US Army in the US. He has and still does have a huge respect for the US military. He served with ARVN and sometimes US military (army) out in the field.

[AKIron]

If Iraq becomes a democracy where law and individual rights are valued then we will have succeeded and the world one big step closer to a better place for all, whether that was our goal or not. Way too early to call this one. Even if this happens I suspect that 15-20 years down the road there will be many claiming that it was inevitable, much like the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Toad]

Originally posted by senna
No I did not. I said that it was big talk/opinion from someone who was on a jet thirty thousand feet up. I still feel the same however I erased the thread.

So you think only combat soldiers are entitled to an opinion? Or that they have the only valid opinion?

Thats why I erased my post.

Which is not an apology.



You lack the personal experience of jumping from a huey to trot off into the jungle. You lack the personal experience to comment on fighting techniques, habbits, and overall capability of front line ground units during that war.

Those experiences have essentially no bearing on the question of whether or not the SV were willing to fight as hard to defend their freedom as the NV were to deny them of it.

History has spoken quite clearly on that issue and it has nothing to do with how many times your father jumped off a huey.

He would tell me that you are offended and feel insecure with your own service towards those who served on the ground in the infantry.

Hardly. I chose my branch based on my family tradition. I'm quite proud of my service and what I did for my country. The infantry did what their country asked of them and so did I. Hard concept for you to grasp I guess. You appear to believe that only the infantry serves. Which is BS of the highest order.

Of course there were some that did not do well though.

Again, history has already spoken on this issue. They were routed once the US troops were no longer there. That's about 15 years from when Kennedy first sent advisors to them. All the training, all the supply, all the help we gave them made no difference. There is ONE reason for that in my opinion. Simply because the NV's wanted it worse than the SV's.

In a post above, I thanked you for your service.

Yes, after denigrating it. Which you continue to do even now.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Toad
How do you KNOW that? How do you KNOW some crazy little bugger isn't sitting waiting for the US to pull out so that he can get the bad stuff out of the country to his terrorist buddies in Palm Beach?

Again, we didn't find and destroy ANYTHING of significance in the WMD lines we accused him of having.

If it is there, you have no clue who might have access to it.

No change, really. As you admit, his true WMD capability was unknown before the invasion.

It's still unknown. NO CHANGE.

Saddams WMS capability was not unknown, he was very capable and willing to produce them. What was not known was weather or not he still retained active WMD


So you think leaving Saddam to control the country and any WMD , compared to the US controling the country and removing any chance that Saddam would continue to develope and use them,  is no change?

You keep pointing out that you fear someone might access WMD, which is funny.....because if WMD are there, the invasion was justified. IF WMD are hidden, we are justified simply because they are there when they were not supposed to be, right?

Now, if no WMD are ever found, at the very least we removed the threat that Saddam posed as a known developer and user of WMD.

How can you say no change?

BIG changes my friend.

[senna]

Thats why I erased my post.

Which is not an apology.

I appologize if I offended you in regards to your service. I did not mean for it to sound that way. You know how things get on this BBS, outa contrlol.

[Toad]

You're reading but no comprehending.

You keep saying they were there and that justifies the invasion.

Except for one thing. Nothing substantial has been found. On that basis, pretty hard to justify, eh?

UNLESS.. UNLESS.. they're there and we haven't found them! Ah-HA!

But if we haven't found them, we haven't accomplished diddle. They'll still be there after we leave, won't they? You think just because SH isn't running the place they won't be a threat to us after we leave? Upon what do you base this conclusion?

If there were no weapons, we were fools to lose 800+ lives over that, don't you agree?

If there WERE weapons, they still constitute a threat in the wrong hands, don't you agree?

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Toad
You're reading but no comprehending.

You keep saying they were there and that justifies the invasion.

Except for one thing. Nothing substantial has been found. On that basis, pretty hard to justify, eh?

UNLESS.. UNLESS.. they're there and we haven't found them! Ah-HA!

But if we haven't found them, we haven't accomplished diddle. They'll still be there after we leave, won't they? You think just because SH isn't running the place they won't be a threat to us after we leave? Upon what do you base this conclusion?

If there were no weapons, we were fools to lose 800+ lives over that, don't you agree?

If there WERE weapons, they still constitute a threat in the wrong hands, don't you agree?

Toad, Im saying *IF* WMD are there and hidden ( like your B scenario) then that alone justifies the invasion. I never said one way or the other in buildup to the war that Iraq had WMD.

You keep missing a major point. The point is the Saddam was known to have them, didn't account for tons of them and was about 10 days away from being declared by good 'ol Hans Blix to be in full compliance.

If no WMS are found or they are proven not to have existed, then that would be ideal wouldn't it? No more Saddam to rebuild them and no crazies to dig them up, right?

If they are found, even after we leave, and are dug up by some crazy, then the war will be justified based on their existance alone. Right? Hidden WMD would justifiy the war, correct?

And no, we are not fools for invading and losing 800+ lives. We eliminated the threat Saddam posed by being in control of Iraq and it's WMD programs, plus other banned weopons. We took action when it was clear the UN would not.

Maybe the war in Alfghanistan is no change because we didn't wipe out the Taliban, capture Osama and Omar? Who is to say that the Taliban wont take over when we leave? I guess you would have to say that was not justified either.

The Iraq situation is not over as you know. I feel you are being pretty short sighted.

[Steve]

NO CHANGE.

Wrong, a multi-billion dollar regime w/ money to spare that supported terrorism has been eradicated.

[Toad]

Follow the idea all the way through. In Scenario B if we LEAVE before we find them, what have we accomplished?

Those weapons would theoretically still be there. If you're saying it was worth 800 soldiers to remove SH and still leave the weapons, again I disagree.

We didn't go in to remove the weapons from SH's control or just to remove SH. We went to REMOVE THE WEAPONS. Clearly that hasn't been done and it's highly unlikely to be accomplished before the Iraqis hold their elections.

Which will lead directly to us getting the heck out of Iraq. WITHOUT finding the weapons. IMO.

Here's a major point YOU overlook. There's lots of guys that don't like us that have nukes already. Like Kim Jong Il, for instance; yet we don't consider him an immediate threat to the US despite the fact that he's selling/sold nuke tech and uranium to other bad guys, like Libya.

So, given that SH's WMD obviously weren't on the firing line  and were so well hidden that neither Blix nor all the US troops in Iraq could find a trace of them.... how much more of a threat was SH than Kim? Did we HAVE to go?

Sure doesn't look like it to me now. It did then, I admit. I suppported the invasion based on the weapons being an immediate threat. But after every mission there has to be a debrief, an after action assessment. My assessment is BAD DECISION. Even though I supported it, it looks like I was wrong in doing so.

Anyway, as I pointed out, we lived 50+ years with Russian missiles pointed at us and ours at them.

If no WMS are found or they are proven not to have existed, then that would be ideal wouldn't it?

Ideal except for one thing. We wasted 800+ American lives for nothing.

You know, it's generally accepted that the death of my Uncle John shortly after D-Day near St. Lo led directly to the early death of my grandmother. She never got over the loss of John and her health deteriorated rapidly after they got the telegram.

To this day, my mother isn't over the loss of her brother.

Tell me, if this example of yours were the end result, how would you feel about the loss of YOUR son in this cause?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Steve
Wrong, a multi-billion dollar regime w/ money to spare that supported terrorism has been eradicated.

But that wasn't the mission was it? WMD was the mission. There's been no change in the status of those WMD's.

[Nash]

The only change I see is that a multi-billion dollar regime with comparatively dubious ties to terrorism has now been upstaged by a multi-billion dollar regime that's engaged in a ludicrous war.

Oh, and that 800+(tens of thousands) are no longer around to see it go down.

It oughta kinda piss off the folks here who screech "I am a tax payer!", and who kneel at the altar of a 450 dollar tax cred meanwhile Sam's lifting three times that amount out of your pocket and dumping it into the bank accounts of weasels.

People are getting rich, and people are dying.

You and me? Nothing. We're just cheerleading it on or making arses of ourselves by questioning it. It really has nothing to do with anybody here.

Good times.