F6F Top Speed

[Shuckins]

I don't believe the Hellcat was being sent to the retirement home Rafe.  The Corsair had finally been carrier qualified by early 1945, so its numbers were being increased.  Torpedo and dive-bombing aircraft were being eliminated because there were few mission they performed that the Corsair and Hellcat couldn't do better.  

The F8F was intended to counter the kamikaze threat which was expected to peak when Allied forces invaded Japan.  If memory serves, the Bearcat was to be assigned mainly to the jeep carriers which were stationed closer to the beaches than the fleet carriers.  It was never meant to take over the long-range strike duties of the Hellcat.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

[Mathman]

Its nice to see that my calendar is correct.  This topic seems to pop up about every 6 months to a year.  j/k

I suppose it is an understatement to say that I am a fan of the F6F.  I just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.  While there seems to be some fairly strong evidence indicating that the top speed was over 400, I don't know or care that this change will be put forth in a subsequent version of AH.  Would I like more speed?  Of course!  Who wouldn't?  However, I feel the F6F is a great plane as is and don't see this as something that is a pressing issue, at least not like some of the issues that people insist are there for the 38 (I use "insist" for the simple reason I don't fly the plane or know enough about it to offer an opinion concerning these problems if they do indeed exist).  The other issue is NACA-type performance charts for the Hellcat.  Do any exist with the revised speed difference?  If not, its a tough nut to crack trying to provide data for Pyro so that he can change the performance to the proper figures at all altitudes.

On a side note, I have also recently seen people wanting the -5N with its 2 20mm's.  Until we have a way of implementing night fighters in an accurate environment, my question has to be "why?"  The 6 .50's shred planes very easily.  No need for the Hispanos.  It would ruin an good plane.  Those that just want to have the 20's added, where is the evidence that these were placed operationally on the -5 day fighters?  I have yet to see any beyond the fact that all -5's had the inner gun bays configured so that they could carry the 20mm.

[Shuckins]

Math,

I'm seen evidence that some of the last production model F6F-5s did have 20mms.  Not sure if any made it into combat, but some did, apparently, wind up seeing service in some reserve units.  They can be spotted in old photographs of these reserve aircraft by looking at the position of the gun barrels.  The inboard 20mms protruded at least a foot from the wing's leading edge.  These weapons were therefore recessed further into the wing than the 20mms of the F6F-5N night fighters.  The barrels of the two out-board .50 calibers were flush with the wing's leading edge.

There was also a rumor that some of the -5 Hellcats flying from carriers to support the landings in southern France in 1944 had been modified to carry 20mms, but I've never been able to find any evidence to back that up.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

[joeblogs]

Hellcat was used in training through the early 1950s.

-Blogs

Originally posted by Rafe35
Then later Grumman F8F Bearcat putting Hellcat to retirement home and F8F is pretty faster than almost US Navy planes until F4U-5 came in 1946.

[Shuckins]

To get back to the main question...ahem...are there any major differences between the flight models of the Hellcat in AH I and AH II?

[Rafe35]

Shuckins

Yes, F6F Hellcats are still serviceable, but not as fighting role and mostly of them were use them for training for new US Navy pilots after the ended WWII.  Most of them were sold for scrap or blow up by new radio-guided flying bombs before Korean War.

The fastest Hellcats were the two XF6F6's using uprated R.2800.-2,l00hp normally but boosted to 2,450 hp with water injection. This engine turned a fourbladed Hamilton Standard propeller and pushed the needle to 417 mph at 22,000 feet. No production order was received for this type, however, as the final tests were completed after the end of the war. Hellcat production terminated after 12,275 units had been built.

Rafe

[Furious]

Using the F4u's initial carrier quals as some sort of proof of poor low speed handling is incorrect.

Tom Blackburn places the qual difficulty with the design of the tail hook and the unseasoned deck on the Bunker Hill,  The hook was shaped in cross-section similar to an ax and would cut through the soft wood decking, snag on some underlying steel and pop off, leaving the plane undecellerated to be caught by the crash barriers.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Rafe35
A pair of Corsair took on two Grumman Hellcat NOTE Navy Flier Edward "Butch" O'Hare piloted one of the Hellcats, and later flew the Corsair. Observers said the Hellcat was no match for F4U-1.

Funny, the Japanese didn't think so, they feared the Hellcat more than any other allied fighter. And, for good cause. Saburo Sakai stated that IJNAF pilots dreaded running into Hellcats. Its speed and maneuverability combination easily overpowered the Zero.

Let's see, the F4U-1 is a bit faster on the deck due to power increasing due to direct ram air. At altitude the difference is nil*. (read some test reports for the full skinny). The Hellcat wins the climb contest with ease, and the turning radius contest by a very large margin. Drag coefficients are nearly identical (.267 vs .271).

Butch O'Hare was a hero, no question. But, he earned his CHoM shooting down medium bombers. Indeed, O'Hare picked up two more kills in the F6F, but was shot down and killed in it. Put David McCampbell in the Hellcat and the best F4U pilot you can name and then let's see what happens.

My opinion is that the F4U didn't surpass the F6F until the arrival of the F4U-4.

*Corky Meyer has described the comparison testing of the F6F-5 and the F4U-1A. Once in high blower at altitude, speeds were identical.

My regards,

Widewing

[Redd]

Originally posted by Shuckins
To get back to the main question...ahem...are there any major differences between the flight models of the Hellcat in AH I and AH II?

Doesn't seem to me there is any major differences.

Most of the plane v plane match ups are as you would expect.

have noticed the niki a little easier to kill and the ki-61 a little harder, might just be a matter of who's been flying them, need some more time

Zoom climb feels pretty good -  dont' know if it's better.

One thing I have noticed (several times unfortunately) is you really get a different feeling and effect of the "weight" of the plane when you are close to the ground.


Have augered , in low and slow fights where I normally wouldn't have.



Redd

[Redd]

Originally posted by Widewing
Funny, the Japanese didn't think so, they feared the Hellcat more than any other allied fighter. And, for good cause. Saburo Sakai stated that IJNAF pilots dreaded running into Hellcats. Its speed and maneuverability combination easily overpowered the Zero.

Let's see, the F4U-1 is a bit faster on the deck due to power increasing due to direct ram air. At altitude the difference is nil*. (read some test reports for the full skinny). The Hellcat wins the climb contest with ease, and the turning radius contest by a very large margin. Drag coefficients are nearly identical (.267 vs .271).

Butch O'Hare was a hero, no question. But, he earned his CHoM shooting down medium bombers. Indeed, O'Hare picked up two more kills in the F6F, but was shot down and killed in it. Put David McCampbell in the Hellcat and the best F4U pilot you can name and then let's see what happens.

My opinion is that the F4U didn't surpass the F6F until the arrival of the F4U-4.

*Corky Meyer has described the comparison testing of the F6F-5 and the F4U-1A. Once in high blower at altitude, speeds were identical.

My regards,

Widewing

If the AH models are accurate and anything to go by you would back the f6-f in any co-e engagement . Would take a fair pilot skill adv to pull the f4u back to even odds.


Redd

[Rafe35]

Originally posted by Widewing
Put David McCampbell in the Hellcat and the best F4U pilot you can name and then let's see what happens.

Well, There's is couple good F4U Pilots like Gregory Boyington and Ira Kepford, but there is so many F4U Aces and I believe there are like 124+ of them.  

That is good idea what you said Widewing, an "What If" David McCampbell in the Hellcat and the rest of Hellcat Aces .VS. F4U Aces.

Rafe

BTW, Before Sakai death, He visit to the Champlin Fighter Museum in Mesa, Arizona, he eagerly accepted a backseat ride in a P-51D.  Hopping down after 40 minutes of aerobatics with owner Bill Hane.  Sakai grinned and said through his interpreter, "The Mustang is almost as good as the Hellcat!"  

[Mathman]

Originally posted by Rafe35
Well, There's is couple good F4U Pilots like Gregory Boyington and Ira Kepford, but there is so many F4U Aces and I believe there are like 124+ of them.  

That is good idea what you said Widewing, an "What If" David McCampbell in the Hellcat and the rest of Hellcat Aces .VS. F4U Aces.

Rafe

I don't think it would be all that great of a fight.  It would be a gangbang of epic proportions with 307 F6F aces fighting those 124 F4U aces.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Math,

I'm seen evidence that some of the last production model F6F-5s did have 20mms.  Not sure if any made it into combat, but some did, apparently, wind up seeing service in some reserve units.  They can be spotted in old photographs of these reserve aircraft by looking at the position of the gun barrels.  The inboard 20mms protruded at least a foot from the wing's leading edge.  These weapons were therefore recessed further into the wing than the 20mms of the F6F-5N night fighters.  The barrels of the two out-board .50 calibers were flush with the wing's leading edge.

There was also a rumor that some of the -5 Hellcats flying from carriers to support the landings in southern France in 1944 had been modified to carry 20mms, but I've never been able to find any evidence to back that up.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

Production -5 Hellcats DID NOT see fleet service with 20mm cannon.  The only reason the wing is configured both ways is for ease of manufacture, as Grumman did not to completely tool up two assemblies of the wing.  The wing is different in areas, but not substantially.  The only Hellcats pressed into use with the 20's was the -5N, and they were so sparingly available, it is almost not worth mentioning.  The erection and maintenance manuals for the -5 list the 20mm as an "also available," and spend little time on it.  Mathman is right, give up on the -5N, there is no need.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Rafe35
Shuckins

Yes, F6F Hellcats are still serviceable, but not as fighting role and mostly of them were use them for training for new US Navy pilots after the ended WWII.  Most of them were sold for scrap or blow up by new radio-guided flying bombs before Korean War.

The fastest Hellcats were the two XF6F6's using uprated R.2800.-2,l00hp normally but boosted to 2,450 hp with water injection. This engine turned a fourbladed Hamilton Standard propeller and pushed the needle to 417 mph at 22,000 feet. No production order was received for this type, however, as the final tests were completed after the end of the war. Hellcat production terminated after 12,275 units had been built.

Rafe

Most Hellcats were not blown up by radio controlled bombs, they served mostly as drones, which were blown up as the US developed air to air missiles.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by joeblogs

Second, most comparisons of -8 and -10 Double Wasps use the same performance numbers, but I've seen reports where the superchargers are not the same and hence the critical altitudes are slightly different (only by a few thousand feet). This might explain differences in Vmax. But this is tentative claim; I am trying to match up three different engine numbering systems.

The ONLY difference between the -8 and -10 is the downdraft carburetor on the -10.  That is it.