Author Topic: Slats on 110 and 109s  (Read 1391 times)

Offline Chortle

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2004, 08:25:52 AM »
Slats dont show in the film viewer unfortunately. I find the chase view best to see them shaking about.

Offline Wilbus

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2004, 08:43:32 AM »
Exactly Overlag, that is the problem, they pop in and out like crazy.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Eagler

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not an expert but
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2004, 08:45:00 AM »
seem a bit overdone .. I thought the noise was bad enough but now it affects flight/aim = game
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Offline Kweassa

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2004, 09:23:09 AM »
Quote
it also seems you cant keep them out... IE the turns i do, even if they are the same force on the stick with no slippage cause the slats to keep going in and out, sometimes in random orders.


 Oh they can be kept out  alright.

 But the problem is none of the 109s can maintain a hard turn under 200mph with AoA high enough to keep them popped out.

 It's like this;

1) You enter a knife fight. The enemy chops throttle, kicks rudder and pulls hard to execute a tight turn.

2) You also chop throttle, kick a bit of rudder and pull hard.

3) clack! the slats pop out, momentary shake.

4) Ut-oh, your speed starts getting under 200mph. You can't use flaps yet, but you're so slow and unstable that you can't pull a tighter turn... so you ease the stick.

5) bap! the slats pop in back, another shake, and the excellent accelerations of the 109 backfires, and speeds your plane up.

6) So you chop throttle again, kick rudder again, and pull tighter again. Clack! Slats pop out again.

7) And then, almost immediately, 109 wants to stall out, you have to ease stick, and bap! they go in again, and you shake again.

8) repeat above

...

 So it's a continuous procession of clack-bap-clack-bap-clak-bap, and shake shake shake shake all along the turn.  Only when you can start to pop flaps, you can maintain an AoA high enough to hold the slats out and stabilize the plane that way... except by the time you start to use flaps you're probably outturned already.

  ...

Offline Wilbus

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 09:23:16 AM »
Well Eagler, it should affect "flight/aim = game" as you put it, not only do they come out very quickly thus creating a forward force on a small part of the wing, but they also affect the flight performance (that is why they were put there in the first plane) and creates more lift for the wing. Those two combined can make it quite unstable when they slam out. The real question is should they slaw out and in as if they hve gone crazy?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Wotan

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 09:27:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm

One link I foud quite quickly, it is not this link I was talking about before but here too they comment on the slats "throwing off the aim" of 109 pilots if they deployed in the critical moment.

It is IMO not weird that they would do that as they change the aerodynamics of the plane somewhat, and they deploy very fast and with a heavy bang and force, they should definatly affect the plane.


Thats with the E models. With the F model and upwards the automatic wing leading edge slats were much improved and they operated smoother.

But even so the issues with aiming had to do with aileron biting not that the slat opened with such force as to jolt the aircraft about in its yaw axis.

Here's what Eric Browns says

Quote
I was particularly interested in the operation of the slats, the action of which gave rise to aileron snatching in any high-G manoeuvres such as loops or tigh turns so I did a series of stalls to check their functioning more accurately. The stall with the aircraft clean, with half fuel load and the engine throttled right back occurred at 105 MPH (168 km/h). This was preceded by elevator buffet and opening the slats about 20 mph (30 km/h) above the stall, these being accompanied by the unpleasant aileron snatching as the slats opened unevenly. The stall itself was fairly gentle with the nose dropping and the port wing simultaneously dropping about 10 degrees.

- Eric Brown


Of course the slats opened unevenly, but the question I have is should they slam out wih such force as jolt the aircraft about on their own.

Quote
"Many new pilots thought that they were making hard turns, even when the slats were in. For us, the experienced pilots, real maneuvering started only after the slats came out. Because this it is possible to meet pilots who flew at this time (Battle of France, Battle of Britain) who claim, that the Spitfire turned better than the Messerschmitt (E). This is incorrect. I personally had many turning combats with the Spitfires and I could always turn better than them. I shot down six Spitfires this way. 109 lost this advantage when improved Spitfires appeared." - Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous, Hannu Valtonen.


Quote
Me 109 G:
"- How often did the slats in the leading edge of the wing slam open without warning?

They were exteneded always suddenly but not unexpectedly. They did not operate in high speed but in low speed. One could make them go out and in by moving the stick back and forth. When turning one slat functioned ahead of the other one, but that did not affect the steering. In a battle situation one could pull a little more if the slats had come out. They had a positive effect of the slow speed handling characteristics of the Messerschmitt.

- Could the pilot control the leading edge slats?

No. The slats were extended when the speed decreased enough, you could feel when they were extended. "

- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories.

Source:

Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.


I don't know the answer thats why I hoped to get a discussion going in the A and V forum.

Offline Kweassa

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 09:31:22 AM »
Wil, I think the problem is not with the speed that they are deployed. They're supposed to come out quickly, and indeed they react to changes in airflow and immediately start deploying when it is needed.

 But however, these slats weren't spring mounted with lock mechanisms - they deployed immediately, but the whole deployment process itself was gradual.

 If when the slats fully deploy when a certain point is reached, if that point is only half-reached the slats will also deploy only half.

 However, AH slats go from none to full deployment instantly, and also full deployment to full retracted instantly. It should immediately start deploying when a certain point is reached, but reach full deployment as the AoA increases, not suddenly reach full deployment instantly - which, the sudden change of shakes the plane.

 Did some pilots not like slat deployment because gradual deployment would give them the need to continuously compensate for the changes? Or did they not like it because the whole shaking was strong enough to stall your plane at the edge of the envelope?

 My guess goes with the former, not the latter.


by looking at pilot testimonies Wotan posted, it would seem that it's logical to expect the E-4 to react in the current way, and the latter models to react in much more smoother, gradual fashion.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 09:33:23 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Pyro

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2004, 10:18:53 AM »
It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model.  It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.

Offline Wotan

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2004, 10:21:51 AM »
Thanks Pyro....

Offline Chortle

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2004, 11:00:06 AM »
Thats a relief.

Offline Wilbus

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2004, 12:03:07 PM »
Kwel

Kweassa, I never said pilots didn't like them :)

I said they sometimes popped out unexpecedly (spelling?) when a plane went into the slipstream of the enemy plane infront. It was described as shaking the plane somewhat and throwing off the aim.

For experienced pilots this posed NP if I remember correct.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Hyrax81st

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2004, 01:15:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model.  It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.


That's right... blame it on the boss !

heh heh...

Offline Overlag

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2004, 02:02:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model.  It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.


yay :aok
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Apar

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Slats on 110 and 109s
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2004, 03:03:58 PM »
Thanks Pyro, it's a relieve :)