Author Topic: Sad news about the Macchi C.205  (Read 1403 times)

ArcTangent

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 1999, 02:46:00 PM »

Hi Gatt,

Nice picture. Hey, tell me a little about this Italian beauty.

Her front end looks fairly long from the cockpit to the prop, denoting BIG engine perhaps?  What's under the hood exactly? (Horsepower, top speed)

What armament does she pack? (guns/cannon)

She a good climber?  Turn well? Roll crisp or slow?

And lastly is she Durable?  

Do tell, Do tell.


 Arc T


Offline gatt

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 1999, 03:26:00 PM »

Oh well,
big nose for the license built 1,475hp DB605A engine. Armament was 2x12,7mm (with 740 rounds) firing thru the prop and 2x20mm MG151-20 (with 250 rounds) in the wings (with heathers for high altitude intercept =).
Absolute maximum speed: 642km/h at an altitude of 7,200mt. Excellent climb rate and very good maneuverability. Deadly up to 20,000ft. A very tough foe for the SpitMkIX and the P-38J.

 

Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Sascha JG 77

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 1999, 03:45:00 PM »
Anyone know the thinnest book in military history?

It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"

 

<g,d,r>

Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"

Ivedog

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 1999, 05:41:00 PM »
What type of information / illustration does the Aero Detail series provide?  I notice they're quite expensive.

Thanks for the input!

Ivedog

rzch

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 1999, 09:43:00 PM »
These are just my thoughts.

It seems to me that Italy has had a fine navy in both wars, and a fine airforce at least in WWII (dunno about WWI). However her army has been...less than impresive. If there is such a thing as national karma, I think Italy used up all her army karma points in during the glory days of the Roman Legions.

.02

Richard r2ch Jahnel

Offline weazel

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 1999, 10:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"

 That was a pretty lame joke, if I were a soldier following the orders of one of Adolf Hitlers puppets (Mussolini) I would have probably deserted and fought against the piece of toejam! After escaping those tyrants they aqquitted themselves honorably while fighting with the Allies.

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}]


Offline gatt

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 1999, 11:21:00 PM »
Are we talking about a/c or rather about idiotic jokes?
Sascha, the thinnest thing I see here is your brain, ignorant of the WWII history. Oh, in the meantime take a look at the story of the real JG77. You could have a big surprise, indeed.

Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-13-1999).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

veltro

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 1999, 01:47:00 AM »
Someone called "sasha" wrote:

 
Quote
Anyone know the thinnest book in military history?
It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"

That's a textbook example of the cultural level of someone... it is the kind of so-called "jokes" which maybe are considered funny or laughable too... I can see only idiocy and racism out there.

I won't waste a moment trying to explain the meaning of heroism to someone who has only heard about it...

And, by the way, the guy with a Russian nickname flying for a German unit, would be surprised to know that the "real" JG 77 pilots were proud to operate in combat together with the Italian-manned Macchi C.205s of I° Gruppo caccia A.N.R.... but this would be asking too much, I know...  

L'E' BUNA !

     _/_/_/_/
    _/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
   _/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
  _/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
 _/

[This message has been edited by veltro (edited 10-13-1999).]

Offline leonid

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 1999, 04:45:00 AM »
gatt,

From what I know of Italian aircraft, they were very maneuverable, good climbers and decent speed.  However, they weren't too durable under enemy fire.  Is this correct?  I seem to recall, however, that the MC.205 was quite a good plane by any standard.

And don't forget, the Italians fought in the Russian front too!

As for Sascha's joke, I'm sorry, but that wasn't fair to all the Italians who fought bravely in WWII.  If anyone was to be blamed in the Italian army it is the officers. They were more interested in themselves than in their troops, and went to great lengths to insure that their standard of living was maintained at the cost of troops' basic needs.


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AH/cs: Grisha

ingame: Raz

veltro

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 1999, 05:18:00 AM »
-rzch- wrote:

 
Quote
It seems to me that Italy has had a fine navy in both wars, and a fine airforce at least in WWII (dunno about WWI). However her army has been...less than impresive. If there is such a thing as national karma, I think Italy used up all her army karma points in during the glory days of the Roman Legions.

Wanna be deadly and cruelly honest? We had a great navy, but for most of the war it was kept in the ports, due both to lack of fuel and of political willingness of the Italian Navy High Commands to operate in an offensive role. When the navy was used in such a way, it scored some devastating blows against the Royal Navy, but when engaged in a wrong way, due also to the lack of any radar device, it was hit even more badly. Not to mention the blow suffered at Taranto...

The air force? Great on the paper, but made of old aircraft and withouth an industry technologically capable of mass-production. So when new planes were developed, even when they were masterpieces (Macchi C.202 and C.205, Reggiane Re. 2001 and Re.2005, Fiat G.55, Cant Z.1007 bis), each of them was conceived as a fine craftmanship piece, totally unsuitable for mass-production (had it been ever possible...). The result was that for most of the war the Italian pilots had to do their best with the planes available, and when good to excellent ones were at last supplied, this happened in such esigue numbers that their impact was felt only in very limited areas. The rest was (thanks also to a training mainly aimed at emphasizing the manouvred combat and  the aircraft agility, contrary to what were the esigences of the war out there and to the planes used by the enemy...) a struggle for survival, where there were outstanding highlights and a general level of performance that was nothing short of a miracle, considering the operating conditions!

Last but not least, the army: it was the one that suffered the most for being ill equipped, armed, trained and ... led ! When the Italian soldier was put in condition to fight at a par with the enemy, it performed splendidly (ask some British soldier operating in North Africa...). The performance of the Italian "Folgore" and "Ariete" Divisions during the battle of El Alamein was commended by Rommel himself. (certainly usually not very kind towards the Italians...!).
That the level of the higher ranks was well below an acceptable level is a matter of fact, and this led to most of the battle lost by the Italian soldiers. But this is a whole different thing from the normal (pre)-judices usually applied to the Italians.

On many occasions, for an Italian at war the real heroism was to take his WW1 rifle and go to attack an enemy far superior both in numbers and equipment, or to climb into a cockpit and face often with an outdated, outgunned and outperformed aircraft, lots of better armed, faster and more modern aircraft, flown by better trained pilots... it is easy to speak today, even easier without knowing anything about what really happened.

So the truth, as you can see, was far less "glamorous" than the Fascist regime wanted to admit and the most criminal act was that of throwing into WW2 a nation that wasn't capable of sustaining it, let alone winning!

I do really hope that this helps to shed a bit of light into this matter and to let someone think twice before posting old junk that can be at par with the "Pizza, Spaghetti and Mandolino" image that many would like to continue to believe in...

We are the sons and the nephews of those Italians and, while we can be (I personally am) really ashamed of the rise to power of Fascism, I'm not ashamed at all by their behaviour during the war and by their subsequent choices that led to the nation I'm living in. This said, we will not let pass any unrespectful comment against Italians... this should be crystal clear for all.

All the best and ... L'E' BUNA !

_/_/_/_/
_/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
_/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
_/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
_/

Offline Laika

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 1999, 05:37:00 AM »
[veltro wrote]
"And, by the way, the guy with a Russian nickname flying for a German unit"


You talking to me ?
(trying my best De Niro from taxi driver  )

laika
8./JG5

[This message has been edited by Laika (edited 10-13-1999).]

Offline gatt

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 1999, 05:40:00 AM »

Leonid,
again thanks for your words and your knowledge of history. I'll be happy to wing you in the arena. Even if actually we are virtual foes  

As far as durability is concerned I think that you can compare the C.205 with a 109G6, but I can be wrong. Any hint will be more than wellcome.

Regards,
Gatt
4¡Stormo Caccia

P.S.: Sascha, again, read the war diary of the JG77. They were proud of the 205 pilots they fought with. And they did envy the Veltro. Some of the best photos I've ever seen are of 109G and C.205 patrolling togheter the italian sky.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Flathat

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 1999, 08:30:00 AM »
I was going to mention the Ariete division until Veltro beat me to it....

When I'm not flying, historical miniatures wargaming is my bag. One of my favorite things is commanding my regiment-sized micro-armor "abteilung" (gatt or veltro, what's the Italian equivalent term for abteilung?) consisting of a Bersaglieri battalion, supported by a company of Semovente 75s with attached 47mm ATG and 20mm Breda AAA, teamed with an understrength battalion of M13/40s. If I can get some decent ground I give the Tommies a lot of trouble, at least until they can bring up some Matildas.   But even then, if I can get Rommel to loan me a couple of platoons of Marders or an 88....  

The 47L32 (I know it's getting off-topic) is a good hard-hitting gun for its caliber, handicapped in most rules systems by (apparently) optics that limit its effective range. It was considered ballistically superior to the British 2pder, though, in the eyes of many. The fundamental problem with Italy's war effort was its command & logistics structures, along with lack of industrial base.

I think Sascha was just trying to be funny, which goes to show that humor is a difficult concept  . I myself am waiting patiently for an RPS that includes Macchi C.R.42s and Gloster Gladiators. You SpitDweeben(tm) just think you know turn'n'burn. (KIDDING!!!!)   Those kites will just about pirouette on a wingtip.  

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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail


Offline gatt

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 1999, 09:09:00 AM »
Flathat,
No, Sascha is only adding realism to this beautiful simulation. We all know that JG were plenty of gallant aces like Galland, Rall and Steinhoff. We all know that there were also fanatic characters, full of hot air. You understand what I mean?    
I hope he or his CO will show up and tell something HERE.

Regards,
Gatt
4°Stormo Caccia


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-13-1999).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

veltro

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Sad news about the Macchi C.205
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 1999, 09:45:00 AM »
FlatHat wrote:

 
Quote
One of my favorite things is commanding my regiment-sized micro-armor "abteilung" (gatt or veltro, what's the Italian equivalent term for abteilung?)

The term is "reparto"...  

Thanks for joining...  

L'E' BUNA !

     _/_/_/_/
    _/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
   _/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
  _/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
 _/