Author Topic: P-38 Still has Problems  (Read 10362 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2004, 01:34:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Crumpp, you are comparing a P-38F to a P-51B.


That is the same logic as comparing DC-3 to a 707 and concluding that Boeing must build better airplanes than Douglas.


The P-38J is the contemporary of the P-51B.  They are pretty much equal, with each of them having small advantages in certain areas.  Likewise, the P-51D and P-38L are more or less equal, with the P-38L being arguably the better plane.


Of course, there's the matter of the fact that 8000+ P-51D's cost the US government less money than 3800 P-38L's.  This financial factor is IMO what ultimately doomed the Lightning, not any deficiency with the actual airplane.  


J_A_B



I wouldn't necessarily say either is actually superior over the other.

In fact, I'd say the P-38 and the P-51 compare much as their modern counterparts the F-15 and the F-16.

In fact, the parallels between the two pairs is striking when you consider it.

Each has a very important role in the AF they serve, and unique characteristics that make it better suited for specific tasks, while able to perform most all tasks required quite admirably.

The two twin engined fighters are larger, heavier, more complex, more expensive, and better suited toward certain specifc tasks. But they are both still capable of handling any of their contemporary enemies in the hands of a skilled capable pilot.

The two single engine fighters are lighter, smaller, somewhat more maneuverable in certain flight envelopes, simpler, and less expensive. While well suited to certain tasks that the twin engined planes are less suited for, they are also capable of handling their contemporary enemies in the hands of competant pilots.

They fill two different roles, while able to crossover and handle other jobs quite well.

The P-47 fits somewhere in between, and really has no modern counterpart. In interdiction and ground attack the A-10 would be a modern counterpart (it is after all a Republic Thunderbolt), but there is no large heavy modern single engine fighter.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2004, 01:35:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Their never was an argument.  Some guys just didn't like it that their plane was not the end all fighter they wish it to be.

Crumpp


Wrong again.:rolleyes:

I never asked for the P-38 to be able to deploy flaps at speeds it could not and should not deploy them at. Nor did anyone else. That was, in fact, a straw man constructed by Kweassa.

Nor did I ask for the P-38 to be able to keep those flaps deployed at excessive speeds with no penalty or damage. No one else did either. That's another straw man.

What the hardcore P-38 pilots DID ask for was for the autoretract to be removed. The problem is that there is an arbitrary speed that forces the flaps up when no such thing occured in real life. And this speed can be easily reached and then just as easily and quickly decellerated from in an instant. At this point the speed is too low for the flaps to be raised without causing departure. The hardcore P-38 pilots are all to a man willing to accept damage to the plane should the flaps be deployed or remain deployed at excessive speeds for any real length of time.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 01:46:59 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline J_A_B

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2004, 01:38:49 AM »
"I'd say the P-38 and the P-51 compare much as their modern counterparts the F-15 and the F-16. "

I've actually used that comparison myself, from time to time.


Wow...it's late.    I'm going to bed.   Fun discussion.

J_A_B

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2004, 01:48:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
"I'd say the P-38 and the P-51 compare much as their modern counterparts the F-15 and the F-16. "

I've actually used that comparison myself, from time to time.


J_A_B


As would any good student of history and fighter aircraft. It is very well founded, even used by the people involved with the design and selection of the aircraft.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2004, 03:03:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Their never was an argument.  Some guys just didn't like it that their plane was not the end all fighter they wish it to be.

Crumpp



Name one P-38 driver that has posted such a thing in this thread or any other thread in regards to the P-38?


ack-ack
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Offline gripen

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2004, 04:18:48 AM »
There have been several long threads on the P-38 and P-51B and high altitude performance of them and there is no reason to go them through again. Shortly; the P-51B with the V-1650-3 was far better fighter above 25k than any serie produced P-38 ever flown.

BAC report on the P-38 can be found from here

NACA report on max lift coefficients can be found from here

NACA report on dive recovery flaps can be found from here

In addition "America's Hunred Thousand" contains unbiased performance data.

gripen

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2004, 07:06:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
There have been several long threads on the P-38 and P-51B and high altitude performance of them and there is no reason to go them through again. Shortly; the P-51B with the V-1650-3 was far better fighter above 25k than any serie produced P-38 ever flown.

gripen


You think. In certain situations, it was better, but not far better. You're right, there's no reason to go through them again. We are not buying it this time either. There are just as many pilots who flew both that find the P-38 equal to or better than the P-51 as there are with the opposing opinion.

Oh, and "America's Hundered Thousand", like any other book, is not totally devoid of bias. It is a good book, but not an unbiased source. Look and see if it shows the WEP data on the P-38L. The correct data. The P-38L, the variant produced in the largest numbers, had over 600 more HP due to improved engines, than the P-38J. Yet in most books, the P-38L is rated at the same speed at Military Power as the P-38J is at WEP, but WEP ratings for the P-38L are not given.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 07:15:20 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Crumpp

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #127 on: June 30, 2004, 07:35:29 AM »
Yeah It's biased.  It doesn't have the P38 running circles around every plane in the Theater...........

One things for sure, the P38 was replaced by more capable fighters in the European Theater.  You can cry conspicarcy theory all day long but the fact remains, IT WAS REPLACED.

:rolleyes:

Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2004, 07:42:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Yeah It's biased.  It doesn't have the P38 running circles around every plane in the Theater...........

One things for sure, the P38 was replaced by more capable fighters in the European Theater.  You can cry conspicarcy theory all day long but the fact remains, IT WAS REPLACED.

:rolleyes:

Crumpp


The fact remains, the P-38 was only replaced in the 8th AF. The 9th AF retained its P-38s, against the same planes the 8th AF faced. So, it was not replaced in Europe, it was replaced in the 8th AF. No matter how much you'd LIKE to believe the 8th AF represented the entire European theater, it obviously did not. It's just too damned bad that doesn't fit your arguement, it's still a fact.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline MiloMorai

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2004, 08:04:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

One things for sure, the P38 was replaced by more capable fighters in the European Theater.  You can cry conspicarcy theory all day long but the fact remains, IT WAS REPLACED.
Crumpp


Can say the same for the P-47 (except for the 56thFG) in the 8th AF.

I know why Crumpp does not like the P-38. It is because 2 engines is too complicated for him.:p ;)

The P-38 did not disappear from the ETO, the 9th AF flew them.

- 367th FG; 392nd FS, 393rd FS, 394th FS; Stoney Cross, Ibsley
- 474th FG; 428th FS, 429th FS, 430th FS; Warmwell
- 370th FG; 401st FS, 402nd FS, 403rd FS; Andover
- 12th TRS, 15th TRS, 107th TRS, 153rd TRS, 30th PRS, 9th WRS(P), Middle Wallop
- 30th PRS, 31st PRS, 33rd PRS, 34th PRS, 155th NPS, 15th TRS; Chalgrove

Offline gripen

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2004, 08:30:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You think. In certain situations, it was better, but not far better. You're right, there's no reason to go through them again. We are not buying it this time either. There are just as many pilots who flew both that find the P-38 equal to or better than the P-51 as there are with the opposing opinion.


Why don't you read documents linked above? Maneuverability and dive restrictions of the P-38 at high altitude were serious and test data by NACA and by manufacturer confirm all this. Or are you saying that the pilots you refer were able to break physical laws?

Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oh, and "America's Hundered Thousand", like any other book, is not totally devoid of bias. It is a good book, but not an unbiased source. Look and see if it shows the WEP data on the P-38L. The correct data. The P-38L, the variant produced in the largest numbers, had over 600 more HP due to improved engines, than the P-38J. Yet in most books, the P-38L is rated at the same speed at Military Power as the P-38J is at WEP, but WEP ratings for the P-38L are not given.


We have gone through all this earlier; 1725hp rating for the F30 by Allison is at 3200rpm and grade 150 fuel (see "Vee's for Victory" or "Aircraft engines of the world"), so far no one has come up with verifyable documentation which proves that this rating was authorized or used by USAAF.  The F30 had exactly same  WEP ratings as the F17 with grade 100/130 fuel by manufacturer  ie 1600hp at 3000rpm and 60".

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2004, 08:41:24 AM »
Yes Milo they did have them.  I have some excellent LW guncamera footage of 9th AF ground attack P38's getting bounced.  

They were removed from the Escort fighter role.

Crumpp

Offline Shuckins

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2004, 08:42:50 AM »
Personally, I believe that if Republic had solved the P-47's range problems, you would be reading a lot less about the P-51 and the P-38 in aviation history.  The Thunderbolt had better performance and maneuverability above 25,000 feet than either of the other two fighters.

Offline Crumpp

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #133 on: June 30, 2004, 08:53:51 AM »
The Thunderbolt was a great fighter.  It is the fighter responsible for shooting the LW from the skies of Europe.  At least for the USAAF.  It destroyed more planes in Air to Air combat in the European Theater than any other type and went on to decimate the German Army.
I completely agree with you Shuckins.


Crumpp

Offline gripen

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2004, 09:04:30 AM »
Shuckins,
The P-51B with the V-1650-3 had better maneuverability and performance at high altitude than any P-47D with B-series R-2800. See AHT and the NACA lift coefficient link above. For the P-47 lift coeffients, see this.

gripen