P-38 Still has Problems

[Hades55]

>>About the only significant short coming of the Lightning was spin/.stall recovery, which could be a bear, especially at low altitude. That's is why this film cautions strongly against entering a spin below 10,000', Tom McGuire, intent on surpassing leading ace Dick Bong, lost his life when he attempted to mix up it up at low altitude with a Japanese Ki-43 "Oscar" while still <<

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/p-38_lightning/p-38_lightning_3.asp

http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html


>>In extremely tight turns, the stall speed increases dramatically. Many times a single engine airplane would spin in from making too tight a turn.  However, the P-38 when stalled in a tight turn would not spin, but just buffet (shake) a little. Thus we could stay right on the ragged edge without fear of a stall/spin accident. <<

http://www.bushwings.com/Diary1.html

>>a. Spin Characteristics

The spin is fast, but recovery is prompt and easy if the proper technique is used.

b. Recovery

The airplane can be brought out of the spin any time by kicking full rudder against the spin for a minimum of half a turn then easing forward the control column. The procedure is as follows:<<

http://home.tiscali.dk/winthrop/p38op8.html

to search inside the texts key word * stall *

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Hades55
>>About the only significant short coming of the Lightning was spin/.stall recovery, which could be a bear, especially at low altitude. That's is why this film cautions strongly against entering a spin below 10,000', Tom McGuire, intent on surpassing leading ace Dick Bong, lost his life when he attempted to mix up it up at low altitude with a Japanese Ki-43 "Oscar" while still <<

Watch that P-38 film at Zeno's and watch how gentle the stall is in the P-38 and how easy it was to recover from.

As for McGuire,  that's a rather simplified account of his death.




ack-ack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Watch that P-38 film at Zeno's and watch how gentle the stall is in the P-38 and how easy it was to recover from.

As for McGuire,  that's a rather simplified account of his death.




ack-ack

Sometimes that is true of the AH P-38, and sometimes not. More often it is not true.

Yes, that account of McGuire's crash is missing a great deal of detail, actually, it's missing about 95% of the story.

[Hades55]

I dont know akak, maby the differend opinions is for differend models.
Have we any changes between J & L models at wings ? sortened
maby ?
No time to look my books.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Here's another film of a low speed/stall fight against a P-38 and a N1K2.  There are some parts of the fight were you see me fight to keep the plane from snap rolling to one side.  It did feel like I had to fight that snap roll more than the planes I was fighting at times.  But then you'll hear my stall buzzer going off and I was riding the edge so it could have been accelerated stalls I was experiencing.  

Too bad my gunnery really sucks now, only managed a couple of minor hits on the P-38's wingtips a couple of times.  But I did manage to hold them both off until the cavalry arrived.


2v1

Crap, wrong film.  That film is of that weird yaw motion on take off sometimes I get.


ack-ack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Hades55
I dont know akak, maby the differend opinions is for differend models.
Have we any changes between J & L models at wings ? sortened
maby ?
No time to look my books.

No, the J and L models retain the same wings. In fact there were few changes to the P-38 wing throughout production. The fillet where the inner wing meets the nacelle was changed to a larger radius. The dive flaps were added. And the intercoolers in the leading edges of the outer wings were removed, and 55 gallon fuel tanks installed in their place. The pretty well covers it.

[OIO]

Kweassa, the problem with that fairy feature of the autoretract is that it *only* screws the P-38 since its the *only* plane that relies on flaps during combat.

In knife fights, the 38 will generally have half of its flaps out... but if it does a nose-below horizon manouver at high G's that for a SPLIT second touches the mph ticker that makes the flaps autoretract... and just like in any other plane, if you are pulling high g's and change your flap settings while pulling high g's, your plane will lose control. Once you lose control you lose your angles,  you may even allow the con on your 6 while you're busy spinning out of control... AND to boot the autoretract feature keeps pulling your flaps up as you spin downward, making it even worse.

I say,  increase the autoretract limit on the P-38 only. By 100mph above the current setting. However, to avoid the 38 pilots from abusing it, ,introduce a very violent screen shake from the current setting up to the new +100mph retract point. That way the pilot will get very little benefit of having the flaps out 100mph above other planes, since they will be really hard pressed to get a shot out with the cockpit shaking..but they will still be able to manouver.

[moot]

51s, 47s are atop a long list of other planes that rely on flaps.. I depend on flaps to save my bellybutton when flying D9s and 152s, and in those too, it's a stick in the wheel to have flaps automatically retract....

They could be kept automatic as they are now, if at least the model included a gradual movement of the flaps, instead of the present binary.

[Kweassa]

Kweassa, the problem with that fairy feature of the autoretract is that it *only* screws the P-38 since its the *only* plane that relies on flaps during combat.

 I strongly disagree. I also think a lot of the US plane pilots would disagree.

 As I have pointed out the key ingredient for the USAAF/USN planes in gaining the slight, but incredibly critical advantage against LW planes during close range, low/mid speed maneuvering is that they can use flaps at least some 40 mph earlier than the LW planes.

 As a Bf109 enthusiast I feel it everyday. It's not a common to meet someone who really knows how to fly P-51s and P-47s, but in the instances where I actually find someone who is determined to E-fight and not rely on the Bore-N-Zoom, I gasp in envy everytime they whip their noses around  during rolling scissors because I know, that I cannot follow that in the 109.

 The 109 may turn better than most of the US planes, but the stability, ease, and abruptness of angles they can pull during scissoring is what makes them such feared enemies in every close-range maneuvering contest. And that power comes from the ability to use flaps.

 I've no idea why you would think only the P-38 is a plane that utilizes flaps with such efficiency.

In knife fights, the 38 will generally have half of its flaps out... but if it does a nose-below horizon manouver at high G's that for a SPLIT second touches the mph ticker that makes the flaps autoretract... and just like in any other plane, if you are pulling high g's and change your flap settings while pulling high g's, your plane will lose control. Once you lose control you lose your angles, you may even allow the con on your 6 while you're busy spinning out of control... AND to boot the autoretract feature keeps pulling your flaps up as you spin downward, making it even worse.

 So what? All the planes fly with the same limitations in that they must abide by the speed set for the flaps, stated in the pilots manuals.

 You think the P-38 is the only plane that's got the trouble? I fly against Spit9s with the Bf109G-2 everyday.

 Everytime I lure a Spit9 into close-range maneuvering which I think I can win, I must watch over my speed because more often than not, dragging the Spit into a near stall, and then whipping my nose around to bear guns on it, is the most critical important move I have to pull to win.

 I have to drag the Spitfire to a very low speed where turn radius has almost no meaning, and only by using flaps I can sustain control over my 109 to whip the nose around and shoot it.

 Hey, your flaps retreat at something like 225mph IAS. The 109's such a damned accelerating machine that even with full rudders the speed pushes over 190mph in a whim, and the flaps start retracting immediately, depriving me of the only chance I had to humble such a superior maneuvering plane like the Spitfire.

 But who's fault is that? Did I lose because the flaps? No, I lost those battles because I made a mistake.

 I assumed, that the Spit9 pilot was in a lower skill level than what I had, and I assumed, my skill was enough to keep the 109 from accelerating and losing the edge. But no, I made a wrong judgement, and thus I lose the edge, and I get shot down.

 Obviously the same thing with P-38 pilots. You guys engage more nimble planes, think you can humble them easily, and then it turns out the enemy squirms more than you expected it could. You start pulling a lot more maneuvers than you thought you needed, and at some point you go into an rolling overshoot contest with nose-below-horizon attitude. It accelerates above the point you thought you could keep under, and bam, the flaps retract.

 So is that the fault of the flap system? No, I think its the pilots fault. If he had foreseen that happening, he should have given up close-range maneuvering and stuck to more conservative E-fighting.

 

I say, increase the autoretract limit on the P-38 only. By 100mph above the current setting.

 You gotta be kidding.

However, to avoid the 38 pilots from abusing it, ,introduce a very violent screen shake from the current setting up to the new +100mph retract point. That way the pilot will get very little benefit of having the flaps out 100mph above other planes, since they will be really hard pressed to get a shot out with the cockpit shaking..but they will still be able to manouver.

 Being the only plane in the whole plane set which can use flaps above 100mph listed speeds, is already abusing all that can be abused.

[Murdr]

Kweassa, I am not jumping in to advocate anything, but I am going to disagree with you.  The 38s flaps were designed specifically for combat use, as opposed to a tactical after thought of "oh, btw you can use a notch or 2 of flaps in combat for a lift boost".  In AH I have had 6+ kill sorties in 51s, 47s, F4Us without ever touching the flaps.  Not so in the 38.  The 38 cannot retain E like these other planes due to compressibility.  Due to that E cap in its design, it needs that low speed manovering stability.  
As a general rule, the fast planes dont turn all that well, and the good turning planes arent all that fast.  That is exactly where the complaint comes from.  The 38 is somewhere in between.  It cannot roll in with a load of E and zoom away with 95% of its E still in tact like the other planes you mentioned.

Its use in the game is not some gamey "throw out the anchor" brake manover, which you seem to keep pointing to in your examples.  It is a necessity for low speed manovering for a plane that cant run away from many situations, and cant out turn many situations without flaps.

You who are are so into realism say its ok to have a flap dependant af hamstrung by a game feature, based on a book value that does not reflect structual failure value.  In real life the p38 did pull low speed manovers with more nimble japaneese fighters, and prevail, and were abused in the process.  One of McGuire's wingmen had to have his 38 replaced from him just trying to stay with McGuire (warped wings).  And then you say its the pilots fault for not counting the ticks on the speedometer when the "combat control surfaces" take on a mind of their own at an arbitrary speed.

OTOH, like I said earlier, I have adjusted to the "game feature" and it rarely causes me harm.  That does not however prevent me from arguing that the 38 is a special case when it comes to flaps.  How other planes (in the game) wish to employ their flaps when they were not designed as their strong suit does not concern me.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Murdr

OTOH, like I said earlier, I have adjusted to the "game feature" and it rarely causes me harm.  That does not however prevent me from arguing that the 38 is a special case when it comes to flaps.  How other planes (in the game) wish to employ their flaps when they were not designed as their strong suit does not concern me.

I am of the opinion that we should lose the autoretract feature or have the option of turning it off. If we have this option and abuse it by not watching the speed as needed per flap notch being deployed, then it damages said flaps and they remain stuck in that postion til you die or replane.
Also Kweassa said that mainly/only the US planes used flaps/combat flaps for manuevering  and depended on them as well in scissor type moves and reversals. I fly the F4U series, and I use all notches depending on speed of the fight and angle ( nose up, top of loop, etc...)
I love the 38 as well I'm just no good with nose mounted guns.  With out flaps you are stuck with Boom N Zoom, with ability to use flaps you gain the advantage to E fight. with autoretracting flaps, you just have to adjust on how to keep your speed equalized for said notch of flaps being extended. and if you spin.....you guessed it! you screwed up and made a mistake. It isn't the games faught.

I too for the most part have adjusted like murdr, to this game feature. Is all we can do til something changes.

[bozon]

The 38 cannot retain E like these other planes due to compressibility. Due to that E cap in its design, it needs that low speed manovering stability.

I don't see how compressability has got anything to do with E retaintion unless you plan to fly 450+mph. nor how it relate to auto retracting flaps.

As a general rule, the fast planes dont turn all that well, and the good turning planes arent all that fast. That is exactly where the complaint comes from. The 38 is somewhere in between.

well, the P47 is marginally faster than the 38 (but accelerates so bad it's actually slower) and turns worse. So the 38 has limitations - is that suprising? wrong?
The 38 is no great preformer in any category (save zoom), but is well balanced.

That does not however prevent me from arguing that the 38 is a special case when it comes to flaps. How other planes (in the game) wish to employ their flaps when they were not designed as their strong suit does not concern me.

So you want a special feature just for the 38.

The auto-retracting flaps as I understand are simplistic modeling. I'd much prefere HTC would spend their time modelling other stuff than how exacly flaps behave in too high speeds and how/when they are damaged.

wouldn't you prefere a P38J added intead of some elaborated flap modeling for the 250-270 speed range?

Bozon

[Murdr]

Originally posted by bozon
I don't see how compressability has got anything to do with E retaintion unless you plan to fly 450+mph. nor how it relate to auto retracting flaps.

Duh, dive a p47, a p51, and a p38 from 12K to the deck, make an accurate shot on an object, and immediatly zoom back up to alt until stall speed, and tell me compressability has nothing to do with E retention.

 well, the P47 is marginally faster than the 38 (but accelerates so bad it's actually slower) and turns worse. So the 38 has limitations - is that suprising? wrong?
The 38 is no great preformer in any category (save zoom), but is well balanced.

What part of the 38 flaps being specifically designed for combat usage didnt you understand?  Pointing at the pros/cons of the P47 has nothing to do with that.  As far as I know the P47 was not know for being able to stall fight with Georges with its combat flaps.
 

So you want a special feature just for the 38.

I could swear I specifically said I wasnt advocating any changes.
However failure to join a crusade does not exclude me from giving my opinion.

[Kweassa]

There's no such thing as a flap specifically designed for combat usage. All flaps are secondary devices of control originating from specific need for stabilizing the plane in take-offs and landings.

 Now in some cases, the stability it offers is considered combatworthy and the designers may concentrate in implementing flaps for more than one purpose.  
 
 However, the picture of "flap usage" you are depicting is a false one which derives from the long tradition of how limited gaming environment warps and distorts reality despite a 'realistic' implementation of certain devices.

 It's basically the same thing as trimming systems. In real life trims were never a combat device at all, nor were they ever used heavily in combat. The only limited instances of trim usage was when it was absolutely inevitable.

 Reducing the workload for the pilot was always a top priority among any combat plane. Pilots trimmed their planes before it entered combat, to a certain limited setting. They never had to trim stuff during combat. Drawing one hand away from the "HOTAS" to work on levers and dials in the midst of heat of battle is something no real life pilot would do.

 Flaps are the same thing. They serve limited purposes in combat, and only in specific, certain occasions would flaps become flightworthy. Deploying flaps during combat means sacrificing incredible amounts of speed, not to mention the constant work load of lowering and raising them. If you think real life pilots would do the "gamey" stuff we do, moving flaps up down up down up down all the time, then you're getting the wrong picture.

 The only reason you feel inclined to use such flap deployment during combat is because it is but a mere touch of button on a stick to us gamers. Not to mention that the constant experience we gain allows us to pull off extremely advanced manuevers, allowing us to combat superior maneuvering planes in their own game, with a inferior maneuvering fighter.  

 Compared to the real life where a simple flat scissoring or a timed barrel roll was for the experienced, a typical  1vs1 combat featuring rolling scissors in AH is what would make a normal real-life combat pilot drop his jaws open in disbelief - as they had to fight disorientation, G-forces, pressure and nervousness, dangers of collision and a million other things in the real world.

 In terms of logic, how many average level combat pilots would be willing to put himself against a plane such as a N1K2 with a P-38L, in a slow speed maneuvering contest? In a game which the enemy almost absolutely excelles in?

 In essence, what you and others is arguing is to grant a waiver for your plane of choice, to make it become better in a certain type of combat you enjoy, without stopping to think that the current failures or problems you meet during combat is not a consequence of one's own actions, but a fault in the system.

 The stipulations are clear. The conditions are the same for all planes. All of the planes are limited in flap usage by historic numbers, specifically for the purpose of enforcing the pilots to abide by the rules set by the book.

 If the P-38L pilots meet frustrations in keeping the fight slow enough to retain flap usage, then it is simply that they chose a wrong way to fight. They misjudged what the enemy and his plane can do - most probably the enemy plane being a slower, more nimble one than the P-38L.

 Simply they thought they still could best it at their own game, and then failed to bring it down, and during some part of combat the acceleration of the plane pushes the heavy P-38 over a certain speed line and the flaps retract. How is this "disadvantageous" to the P-38 when all planes must ultimately face the same agenda when they decide to use flaps?

 I've said this, and I'll say it again. If the flaps are ever implemented in that manner requested, it will be in no way exclusive to the P-38. If the P-38 will be able to retain flap deployment without them being damaged over listed speeds, then so will all planes.

 And all planes being able to drop flaps at a formerly unimaginable speed, is gonna change the game into an incredibly dweebey manner, not to mention it will ultimately hurt the P-38 more than ever since now, the planes the P-38 has to fight against, will also be able to use flaps at higher speeds when they need.

 Currently, you may be able to overshoot a Spit during a nose-down scissoring by use of flaps - since the Spitfire currently has to wait to drop down to under 200mph to deploy flaps.  You think you'll be able to do that when every Spit pilot realizes that they can start using flaps with higher drag and larger E-dumping at 300mph?

 As I said, Il-2/FB is an amazing simulation, but the consequences of flap action as they've implemented, which is pretty much what you people are asking for in AH, is that there's no such thing as overshooting as we know in AH. Any plane can pop out flaps at any speed under 350km/h at whim. Everybody uses flaps as a combat device with the same amount of importance as ailerons and elevators, when clearly such was not the case in a typical real life combat.

 In real life, flap usage during combat was limited to certain situations only. The only planes that could conveniently utilize it at higher speeds are the US planes. Current scheme of auto-retraction ensures AH combat sticks to that, instead of making "pop flaps" a standard combat procedure when entering a turn.

 You're asking to remove all that relative advantage the current system holds for US planes, and you're mistaken if you're thinking it will make the P-38 better. Oh you'll be able to hold flaps out and keep the P-38 stable and slower, but now, since flaps are for everyone, the nimbler enemy planes will also be using flaps making them even more nimble and more stable than it ever was before.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am of the opinion that we should lose the autoretract feature or have the option of turning it off. If we have this option and abuse it by not watching the speed as needed per flap notch being deployed, then it damages said flaps and they remain stuck in that postion til you die or replane.

I wanted to make it clear I wasn't asking for anything more as in increase of speed for flaps, I was merely wishing to have a feature that allowed to turn the autoretract on or off. and if we are granted this wish, I wish that the speeds remain the same, unchanged, except if you don't manage your flaps they will become damaged and you are stuck where they break at! IT will be more of a challenge for the people that use flaps....I want a challenge in this way if possible...
added: or maybe 1 side breaks and the other retracts....make em think twice about watching speeds ....no? lol