Author Topic: Realistic German Markings?  (Read 1586 times)

Offline koala

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Realistic German Markings?
« on: October 12, 1999, 05:07:00 PM »
Are there realistic German markings (swastikas) on the tail of the BF 109?  Haven't flown one in external mode so I'm not sure  (I'm at work so can't test it yet).  If not, why not add an option to turn them on?   European Air War had them on by default and WWII Fighters (Janes) had the option of turning them on.  That way, if you're offended, you don't have to look at them on your client.  I prefer the realism of them turned on.

ko

Offline phaetn

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 1999, 09:42:00 PM »
There is currently no swastika on the Bf109 in AH.

I believe one of the reasons WB didn't have them is because of the legalities in Germany regarding their use; they also have a dedicated German server which may be a factor.  For a boxed sim it is easy to make different versions for distribution in different countries, in an on-line sim where all the software is downloaded this cannot be controlled.

AW3 shows swastikas, but that may just be on the custom artwork and not the default art.  I also don't know how access to that game is handled from outside North America.

Anyhoo - don't hold your breath unless an option for allowing custom art is included.

Cheers,

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phaetnAT
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Offline Sascha JG 77

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 1999, 03:30:00 AM »
Showing Swastikas is a touchy subject over here in Germany, especially in computer games. Each and every game that had em has been banned from the market or altered for the release in Germany.

Wolfenstein 3D: Banned
Doom 2 (had a Wolfenstein Bonus level, remember?): Banned
Indiana Jones and the last crusade: Swastikas removed, english version is banned
Commandos: Swastikas removed, original version won't even run on your PC if the system language is set to german.

The list goes on....

Personally I don't think that people will turn Nazi if they see swastikas in computer games or elsewhere, but considering my country's history the policy makes sense (in a way).

I went to the German museum in Munich a couple of months ago, and the Me 109, Me 262 and Me 163 they have there all had the swatikas removed...pretty weird huh?  

So...: Dear developers at HTC, IEN or Playnet: Thanks for passing on the swastikas, allowing us German guys to fly your products "legally"  

Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"


-floo-

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 1999, 08:55:00 AM »
Well swastikas mau come and go depending on which flight sim you fly and where you live. However the wing crosses are ALL wrong. Instead of the early war bold black crosses with the white outline the Me 109 G10 should have the late war white-outline-only crosses on the top of the wings with camoflage showing though the middle of the cross. The bottom of the wing usually had the black-outline-only crosses but I'm sure with the  chaotic state of the Luftwaffe during the late war saw a few variations of the bottom wing.

-floo- fangs out

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Offline Downtown

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 1999, 12:43:00 PM »
Here in Michigan they recently removed a Native American Good Luck symbol from the floor of one of the public building because people were unable to distinguish between it and the Symbol used by the National Socialist in Germany.

I am suprised there hasn't be an outcry against the symbol on the Finnish Brewster Buffalo's I have seen some artwork of.

A little ignorance will sure go a long way.

Just finished reading "Citizen Soldier" by Stephen Ambrose.  Should be required reading for everyone in the world.

The only fighting should be done via online sims from this point on.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

Offline NATEDOG

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 1999, 01:01:00 PM »
the swastikas will not be put on the German planes because it is a rather touchy subject, and the paint sceem on the 109 is going to be re-done.

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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
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Offline koala

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 1999, 01:07:00 PM »
I personally detest the "dumbing down" of software to the lowest common denominator.  What if Germany had laws that said you couldn't fly any WW2 German planes?  Are we all supposed to suffer for it?  If HTC is planning on making a German server, then it would be easy enough for the server to verify that the artwork was the dumbed down stuff instead of the realistic stuff.  HTC is an American company running from an American server.  Trying to appease every single country in the world is impractical and unfortunate.  I realize this issue isn't a biggie, but it could easily become a bigger one with passage of some new, even dumber law somewhere else.  I don't live in Germany.  HTC isn't a German company.  The server isn't located in Germany.  So why are we having to abide by German law?  And by the way, censorshop is exactly what Hitler advocated.  It's sad to see the current German government carrying on that tradition.

ko

Offline Westy

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 1999, 01:33:00 PM »
A swastika means that much to you?

<shakes head>

WFGAS?

--Westy

Offline Fishu

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 1999, 01:36:00 PM »
That symbol in Finnish Brewster buffalos should be symbol of the Finnish Air Force, from the time before nazi swastikas, till end of second world war.
(that symbol is blue against white roundel)
If im not wrong, it's the original symbol of FAF.

Offline koala

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 1999, 03:53:00 PM »
Westy,

If you'd open your eyes and read my post you'd see that I said the German marking deal is not a big issue.  My concern is having software governed by the lowest common denominator, where any law in any country can affect what I get to play.  Censorship itself *is* a big issue.  Please read posts carefully before responding in such a condescending way.

ko

IceNine

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 1999, 08:28:00 PM »
Eventually, after time had passed, the bombed Federal building was torn down, because the memory it evoked was so traumatic that it could no longer be borne.

Allow Germany the same dignity to bury the traumatic symbols of its' past if it so wishes.

You may consider it censorship if you wish, but HTC was never ( to my knowledge )directly asked to remove those elements, they chose to.
The freedom you seek from censorship comes with the self control and perception to know where and why the lines should be drawn, and to abide by them when proper.

This COULD be an issue of censorship....
...but it isn't. It's a matter of respect.

Offline koala

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 1999, 09:01:00 PM »
Displaying it as an option in my mind gives it the due respect you seek.  But to imply that it's disrespectful to display a swastika in a historical context is to imply that any kind of media (games, movies (e.g. Indiana Jones), books, etc) that deal with the subject are disrespectful.  Sorry, I don't buy that.  Obviously, it's not worth it to HTC to deal with this, so the safe route is to leave it off.  Cool.

Serious question for the German members:  are plastic model plane kits of a BF 109 or FW 190 sold in Germany?  If so, do they come with historically accurate decals?  Just curious.

ko

Offline Dancer

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 1999, 02:48:00 AM »
 
Quote
Serious question for the German members: are plastic model plane kits of a BF 109 or FW 190 sold in Germany? If
                         so, do they come with historically accurate decals? Just curious.

They are sold but not with swastikas.
You can watch Hogan's Heros here or any other
movie that displays swastikas because it plays
in that period.
Toys and games are considered by the authorities
as a different thing than movies.

There is a national authority that has the
power to put games "on the index", i.e.
they must not be sold to anyone under the
age of 18 (in Germany you are legally adult
at 18, not at 21).

Unlike video rental stores, almost no software
store has an "over 18" section with limeted
access. So game producers design games for
the german market with the intention
not to be put on the index because they
wouldn't be able to get a place on the shelf.

It isn't really censorship because the
responsible authority only examins games after
any youth-authority filed a complaint about
a specific game and if you are over 18, you
are free to buy the game.

If you think that this is in the tradition
of Nazi Germany I might remind you about
the discussion in the US after the several
shootings in US High-Schools and how they
are related to computer games.

These are the facts. Now for my personal
oppinion: Generally I think it's good to
such an authority to protect minors.
However, the fact that games are "dumbed
down" (or not even released) as described
above make it impossible for me as an adult
to play what I want, which sucks. Luckily
I can order the original games on the internet
so there is a work-around. Not having swastikas
on plastic-kits is ridiculous, IMHO.

Dancer out.

PS: the dubbing/translation for german
localized versions sucks in 90% of all
games and movies so I'm buying the original
anyway (go and ask a german about the dubbing
of the Star Trek series   )

-floo-

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 1999, 03:05:00 AM »
Here in the states you don't find too many swastika decals in Luftwaffe models. I guess thats mainly due to the fact that manufacturers often send the same kit here and overseas. So I usually end up having to special order a decals sheet with swastikas of varying sizes. The good part of that is that one sheet will probably cover 6 -10 models..depending on what you build  

-floo- fangs out

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Offline Sascha JG 77

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Realistic German Markings?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 1999, 04:50:00 AM »
He he...dancer beat me to it  

When I built my last plastic decal (about 15 years ago) the planes still came with swastikas BTW. I dunno about now though, dancer is prolly right.


Übrigens: Hast Du meine mail gekriegt dancer?


Sascha