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Author Topic: FW190 Tactics vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter  (Read 5494 times)

Offline fluffy

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2004, 09:53:49 AM »
Crumpp! Glad you saw this - it is the story I mentioned to you in the CT.  This group of FW190s started out with 4 planes. I can't recall what happened to the 4th one, but they got separated during the chase from Salerno beach, as did the rest of Kennedy's flight.  

Dr. Kennedy gives a number of other accounts from engagements in the Italian theatre which, perhaps, I might add in here. A particularly interesting one is a similar engagement which he had with 109s (probably G4s) in the same time frame. In this case he blew a bounce through clouds, but turned back in to face the flight.  All but the flight leader had external gun pods on the wings. He said that he and his squadron mates noted this often - that the "fellows" who knew what they were doing flew without the extra guns attached because they didn't need them.  He had a similar experience with the flight circling while he dueled the leader. The fight ended on this occasion when the self-destruct charge on his radio exploded behind his seat and he thought was a cannon hit from a wingman. He and the 109s disengaged.
I'll post the excerpt if anyone is interested.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 09:55:52 AM by fluffy »
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Offline Halo

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2004, 09:54:33 AM »
Real life score:  0-0

Aces High Main Arena score:  1-0 and 2 assists.  

Which is war and which is the game?
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Offline Crumpp

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2004, 10:23:02 AM »
Post it, Fluffy.  Sounds like it would be a good read.  What Kenney notes about the gondolas backs up what I have read in JG53 "Pik As".

Crumpp
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Offline FUNKED1

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2004, 02:26:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Real life score:  0-0

Aces High Main Arena score:  1-0 and 2 assists.  

Which is war and which is the game?


It's pretty funny isn't it?  The more history I read the more I find that real WW2 pilots were HOing warprolling gangbanging dweebs.  :)
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Offline Karnak

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2004, 02:34:27 PM »
Wilbus,

So would I.  That was why I made the snide comment about the Charge's Fw190F-8s.

He was trying to setup a scenario in which overarmored aircraft would be victimized by a Spit and then use that to claim the Fw190F-8's model was porked.

At least that is how I saw it.
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Offline Angus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2004, 03:08:05 PM »
1 Spit attacks 3 190's, hurts the leader and then gets away.
Nice :D
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Offline Wilbus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2004, 03:16:30 PM »
Ops Karnak RGR, I missed his post.

I really don't think the 190's were F's, although there were some F's in service most of those were on the Eastern front.

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Offline Angus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2004, 08:45:38 PM »
Bringing the 190 into the spotlight a bit, there was, I belive, a variant, we could use in AH.
Something like a lightened or pure fighter, I think from the a8 series. It would turnfight if pushed to it.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2004, 09:57:03 PM »
None of the 190 Normaljager's could turnfight very well that I am aware of except against a few USAAF fighters.  There is evidence that the outboard cannon were removed by pilots for pure Air to Air work in order to lighten the 190 and improve the turning circle.  They still were not turnfighters even then.

Turnfighting is overrated in Reality.  I just read an RAF report on flying a 109G14 were it took the 4.5 seconds at, I think, 250 IAS to roll the plane 360 degrees.  It was just a tad worse than the Spitfire.  The 190's roll was stable, controllable, and fast.  It could roll 360, according to what I have read, anywhere from 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds.  With the ability to roll,  change direction, accellerate quickly, and a good zoom climb the 190 was more than a handfull without having to turn turning.

It was an energy fighter from the day it entered combat.  Kurt Tank could have put bigger wings on it.  In fact they did.  They increased the wing size over the V1 in the V5.  The new wing reduced Top Speed by about 10 mph but increased manuverability all around.

Crumpp
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Offline Crumpp

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2004, 09:59:44 PM »
Should be 10Km/hr not MPH.
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Offline moot

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2004, 10:38:07 PM »
A4s or A9s?
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Offline Charge

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2004, 03:30:22 AM »
"At least that is how I saw it."

That was my intention. Sorry 'bout that. :)

BUT, I really don't see much difference in IX and VIII.

And A5:s with extra armour and hardpoints would be nearly the same as F to me.

It was interesting that Mr. Kennedy was pulling that much G and the FW was already diving at him. I really find it hard to believe a similar scenario in AH.

Then again I'm not a very good pilot -mediocre at best...

I really don't want this thread to turn into LW-RAF debate. I was just put off by something that was commented earlier, sorry.

-C+
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Offline Angus

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2004, 04:16:50 AM »
I remember a real life accounter, P51C vs an unknown brand of 190, where the 51 got the first burst, and from that damage, the 190 dropped one gear. The 190 turned into the drag, and out-turned the 51 until the 51 pilot dropped the flaps and turned the tables again.
That same 51 pilot actually said he would have preferred the Spitfire in a tough fight like that.
(He flew Spits as well)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2004, 06:20:07 AM »
Oh yeah Angus, you are correct.

Generally speaking:

The P51B/C was an A/C the FW-190A had about the same turn radius with the P51 having a "slight" advantage.   The P51D and FW-190  turnfought in RL.  Got some gun camera footage of a P51D FW-190 turnfight.  The poor guy in the 51 gets outturned and shot down.  

P47 before the paddle blade for sure was another USAAF A/C the FW 190 could outurn depending on speed and altitude.  After the paddle blade I'm not so sure.

The Typhoon was another A/C.  Not sure on the P38 but I believe it too was outturned by 190A.  Have to check my resources.  Anyway their where some planes out there the 190 could turnfight.  However turnfighting was not one of it's strengths.

Crumpp
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Offline MiloMorai

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FW190 vs. SpitVIII - real life encounter
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2004, 06:35:31 AM »
I./ and II./Sch.G.2 had A-5/U8s, /U3s and F-3s in the summer of '43 based at such places as Gerbini, Milis, Castelvetrano, Vibo Valentia, Ottana and Aquino.
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