Author Topic: Saw moors film  (Read 4293 times)

Offline Pongo

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« on: June 26, 2004, 12:58:48 PM »
Was better done then Bowling. Still propoganda (in that there is no ballance put forward. All assertions are presented as fact)but the only parts that were silly was chasing the senators arround the  street asking them to send thier sons to Iraq.

Conservitiles will hate it. Dems will love it. The only question is how will it impact undecideds.

The R rating is stupid. Score one for the neocons.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2004, 01:12:17 PM »
If its all lies then why isnt he sued?

Offline hawker238

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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2004, 01:31:35 PM »
Because that would lead to further, possibly damaging investigations on what facts are?

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2004, 01:36:48 PM »
I just have the feeling that sueing people is very common in america, and i thought that this kind of movie would be sued very quickly by the republicans because it is made to put bush in a bad light. With elections around the corner and all i did not think this move would get far if it was all undocumented lies.

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2004, 01:39:02 PM »
Because its perfectly legal for an individual to lie as long as it doesn't become libel/slander.

Man.....if they banned lying most politicians--Democrat OR Republican--would instantly be out of a job  :)

J_A_B

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2004, 01:43:08 PM »
Its not allowed to do that here. You better have your facts straight here if you wanna make a film like that and attack a person like i suspect is done in this film. If the person attacked agrees and it is marketed as a comedy it would be ok.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2004, 01:48:33 PM »
Has anyone come across something that asserts that anything in the film is a lie?

Worst I've seen is that it's one-sided. Which.... strikes me as sort of obvious. The US gov has been making its own assertions, and Moore is doing the same. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different.

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2004, 01:51:48 PM »
You aren't allowed to lie?   How do your politicans cope??!!


Not having seen the film Nash, I would imagine his "lies" are in the form of severely edited interviews.  While not necessarily good-faith, it's a common practice on pretty much any nightly news show for starters.


J_A_B

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2004, 01:55:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
You aren't allowed to lie?   How do your politicans cope??!!


J_A_B


hehethey lie here too, but making the kinds of movies that Moore does without beeing able to back it up with evidence/facts is not and he would be sued and the movie would prolly be stopped.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2004, 01:55:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
I just have the feeling that sueing people is very common in america, and i thought that this kind of movie would be sued very quickly by the republicans because it is made to put bush in a bad light. With elections around the corner and all i did not think this move would get far if it was all undocumented lies.


if you sue someone you have to prove their claims aren't true.  Bush would have to actually respond to some of these claims, wich I don't imagine he'd want to do.

I'll wait until the weekend rush is over to see it myself.  from what I hear so far, it doesn't so much 'put Bush in a bad light' as put some light onto this administration.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2004, 01:58:13 PM »
In other words what Moore shows in this film is true but perhaps from a very subjective angle?

Point is... it has to be true right?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2004, 02:11:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
In other words what Moore shows in this film is true but perhaps from a very subjective angle?

Point is... it has to be true right?


no it doesnt have to be true.  Moore makes his points in all of his films by passing them off as facts whent they may in fact be pure speculation or even sercomstantial (sp)  He presents one veiw and that is his own wich is fine because he's a movie maker.  Usually IMHO documentaries should present a balenced view of a subject but that's that.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2004, 02:15:45 PM »
it doesn't necessarily have to be true.

he can present slanted information, that leads you to believe something that is false, but never come right out and say it.

he can come right out and say a damaging lie.  but if you can't prove it's a lie, he's OK.  (since the burden of proof is on the accuser, if you are accusing him of lying, you have to prove it's a lie, he doesn't have to prove it's true)

he can also ask questions and only keep the parts of your answers that prove his point, while editing out things he doesn't.
  for example- Q: is it true that you never donate money to the salvation army guys at Christmas time?
   A: Yes.  however I do donate 50% of my income to various charities.
  it's perfectly legal to play the interview with everything from 'however' forward edited off.  so with a little creative editing you can make a very generous guy look like a selfish penny pinching miser.


thats the real problem with Moore.  in order to do a more sensational or hyped film, he will blow right past reasonable limits, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

you watch a movie of his and take note of his claims, but they aren't proof and you don't quote him, you check them out for yourself first.  

it's not like there is any lack of real, honest proof of questionable activities in this administration.  if he'd stick to that he could  present a much more honest and significant point.  he probably would sell as many tickets though, and thats the real bottom line.

he's hard to take seriously because you just can't trust anything he says without checking it out first.  most of it checks out, but but if he can't find enough evidence to prove what he wants to prove, he's not above creating some with editing.  

  if you are gullible enough to believe everything he says and go quoting it without verifying first, be prepared to look stupid.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2004, 02:16:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
no it doesnt have to be true.  Moore makes his points in all of his films by passing them off as facts whent they may in fact be pure speculation or even sercomstantial (sp)  He presents one veiw and that is his own wich is fine because he's a movie maker.  Usually IMHO documentaries should present a balenced view of a subject but that's that.


That is why im suprised he isnt sued given that his movies may or may not mislead others. If its presented clearly as his personal views it would not be a problem but outright lies?

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2004, 02:19:28 PM »
He can lie through his teeth and it won't be actionable, so long as he doesn't portray it as truth, but satire.