Add Gun Control To Litany Of Misbegotten Gov't Plans

[Terror]

From http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/IBDGunConFailure.html

Are these stats true?

Terror

Add Gun Control To Litany Of Misbegotten Gov't Plans


By John R. Lott Jr. and Eli Lehrer

The gun -control movement is in trouble internationally. From Britain to Australia to Canada, promises of lower crime rates from gun control have turned into historic increases in crime.

While the normal knee-jerk solutions are to press for even more controls, once guns are banned the explanation that the laws failed simply because they didn't go far enough becomes almost humorous.

All these experiments were adopted under what gun -control advocates would argue were ideal conditions. All three countries adopted laws that applied to the entire country. Australia and Britain are surrounded by water, and thus do not have the easy smuggling problem that Canada claims to exist with regard to the U.S.

Take the United Kingdom: With new data showing violent crime soaring, Britain's home secretary announced legislation this month that would impose an outright ban on many toy guns.

Britain has already banned just about every type of weapon that a criminal might want to use. Handguns were made illegal in 1997, and nearly every other firearm (even BB guns) is now subject to a complex regulatory regime.

Twice As Dangerous

The laws didn't do what was claimed. The government just reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998-99 to 2002-03. The serious violent crime rate soared by 64%, and overall violent crime by 118%. The violent crime rate in England and Wales now stands at twice the rate of that in the U.S.

Understandably, the government wants to "do something," but it is hard to believe that the new proposals will succeed where past efforts have failed.

With the exception of the U.S., other English-speaking countries have followed Britain's lead in limiting gun ownership. Like the British, they have nothing to show for it.

Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 Port Arthur gun -control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law went into effect. Armed robbery rates increased 74%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's.

Canada hasn't gone anywhere near as far as Australia and England, but even that country's limited restrictions have caused problems. Despite a gun registration system that has cost 500 times more than promised (the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. claims the overrun is 1,000 times greater), the overall crime rate is more than half again higher than in the U.S. and has risen as the American crime rate has fallen. Meanwhile, violent crime in the U.S. has fallen much faster than in Canada, and murders in Canada have gone up slightly, while falling in the U.S.

The Canadian government recently admitted it could not identify a single violent crime that had been solved through registration. Public confidence in the government's ability to fight crime has also eroded, with one recent survey showing only 17% of voters support the registration program.

Guns do not tell the whole story: Gangs, police and prisons also play a major role. Drug gangs can't simply call up the police when another gang encroaches on their turf, so they end up establishing their own armies and committing a great many murders. (Gang fights account for about 60% of all murders in urban areas in the U.S.)

The U.S. has long had a sophisticated and violent gang subculture that the nation's decentralized system of 16,500 police agencies had a difficult time handling. England's more centralized 45-agency police did a better job fighting gangs, but, over time, the gangs have become more violent, sophisticated and apt at acquiring guns. This has led to rising gun crime.

Police and prisons probably also account for some of the difference in crime, though it doesn't explain why the difference has grown so suddenly. The U.S. also has more police per capita than the U.K., particularly in its big cities:

New York and London are roughly the same size, but New York has about 40,000 police officers to London's 29,000.

Failed Schemes

The U.S. also locks up many more criminals: Nearly 500 out of 1 million Americans are serving time behind bars as compared to about 150 per 1 million in the other English-speaking countries. America, quite simply, keeps more bad guys behind bars where they can't commit crimes.

Repealing gun control laws might not solve the crime problems in the U.K. and Australia overnight, but the exploding crime rates (including gun crime) in countries that have banned all guns shows that we can add gun control to the list of government planning efforts that do not live up to their billing. Its failures have become too overwhelming to ignore.

John Lott Jr, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, is author of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press, 2000) and "The Bias Against Guns" (Regnery, 2003)

[_Schadenfreude_]

Going from 4 gun deaths to say 12 would be a 300% increase - you'll note that the writer was very careful not to mention how many gun deaths  actually occur in the Uk but rather used percentages.

The "toy" guns that he refers to are replica's which are being chnaged to accept and fire .22 cartridges - sort of like a sophisticated zip gun.

Australia has experienced the following following gun regulation coming into effect...

"
February, 2000
Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws

Latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

-- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999

This report shows that as gun ownership has been progressively restricted since 1915, Australia's firearm homicide rate per 100,000 population has declined to almost half its 85-year average. "

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Going from 4 gun deaths to say 12 would be a 300% increase - you'll note that the writer was very careful not to mention how many gun deaths  actually occur in the Uk but rather used percentages.

The "toy" guns that he refers to are replica's which are being chnaged to accept and fire .22 cartridges - sort of like a sophisticated zip gun.

Australia has experienced the following following gun regulation coming into effect...

"
February, 2000
Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws

Latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

-- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999

This report shows that as gun ownership has been progressively restricted since 1915, Australia's firearm homicide rate per 100,000 population has declined to almost half its 85-year average. "

Kind of a M. Moore way too look at it huh

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Kind of a M. Moore way too look at it huh

Beat me to it.

[AKIron]

I just cain't let that one go. If crime was so low before Schaden (with only the 4 gun deaths), then why the need to steal the guns of law abiding citizens?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by AKIron
I just cain't let that one go. If crime was so low before Schaden (with only the 4 gun deaths), then why the need to steal the guns of law abiding citizens?

cause guns kill people....didnt you know.  People who actually pull the trigger are just victomes of "big weapons"  much like "big tobbaco" and "big oil" "big weapons" seeks out the feeble minded and physically puts the gun in their hands and tells them to commit crimes.

I think it was "larry the cable guy" who said it best.

Paraphrase:  people blame guns for crime.....that's like me blaiming my pencil for mispelled words"

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Terror
Are these stats true?

Terror

"the overall crime rate is more than half again higher than in the U.S. and has risen as the American crime rate has fallen."

I don't know what Canadian stats he's using, the lastest released are from 2002.  And they certainly aren't increasing.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/legal02.htm

The FBI's 2003 report has been release, but only in prelimenary form.


"Meanwhile, violent crime in the U.S. has fallen much faster than in Canada, and murders in Canada have gone up slightly, while falling in the U.S."

Actually no, they haven't gone up in Canada.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/legal02.htm


I remember discussing this issue with Toad.  Thereare two things that totally skews the "Violent Crime" stats when you compare Canada and the US.  

Stats Canada includes all assults (Levels 1-3) and any sexual assult in our violent crime stats.  Were the FBI does not include "simple assults" (what would be our Level 1 assults), and only includes "forceable rapes".


FBI

"Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault."

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nviolent02.html


Stats Canada

Crimes of violence

Homicide
Attempted murder  
Assaults (level 1 to 3)
Sexual assault
Other sexual offences
Robbery
Other crimes of violence  



This article is spinny garbage, at least in regards to Canadian crime stats.

[Toad]

Yeah, for a supposedly "standardized" method of crime reporting the "standards" seem to flex.

[_Schadenfreude_]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Kind of a M. Moore way too look at it huh

Not really unless of course you are so twisted up about Moore's film that you think that EVERYTHING relates to it.

Perhaps it would be more rational to realise that America has a different view on guns to the rest of the world and stop trying to convince everyone that your views and morals should be taken on by the rest of us. I've never met any group of people who care quite so much what everyone else thinks of them - all time claiming not to care at all.......very schizoid.

You feel that you have to have guns for some reason - fine, neither I or anyone else really cares how many of each other you kill....feel free, but stop trying to "argue" that somehow more guns means less crime and less waste of life.

[Crumpp]

If guns kill people can I blame mispelled words on my pen?

Crumpp

[demaw1]

Opinion
         those of you in Amercia who wish to take the weapons of freedom out of the hands of law abiding citizens are at best misguided fools and at worst will certainaly reap what u are sowing.This percentage of this and that percentage of that means nothing.Of course u all know more than our founding fathers and their reason for an armed populace.Think on this,what would the Jews of Europe have given to be armed as Americans are?Please take a close look at the pictures of men and women starved and beaten and shot and naked in winter and gassed, hmm, forget that LOOK AT THE CHILDREN TREATED THE SAME WAY, from a supposed inlightened Europe of its day.[many others died the same way also did u know that all and i mean all disabled ,mentaly ill etc. died the same way.] They had weapons but germany confiscated them just before this all happened.So again ask yourself would they have wanted to be armed. You are right that was then not now,would the 1 million Blacks being killed in the Sudan now by the Arab goverment want to be armed or the 3 million Cambodeains of a few years ago?
 I have heard it said over and over it cant happen here well u will be betting your life and your little boys or girls life on it.Sleep well
   demaw1

[lazs2]

yep.. crime went up and so did homicides... but... now they are using much more humane weapons like 12" butcher knives.


let's make it real simple.   Guns save more lives than they take in the U.S. and.. they take mostly the lives that need to be taken...

soo... it's pretty simple... every restriction on guns limits the ability of firearms to help prevent homicide and crime in the U.S.

On a smaller scale... that is what is happening to our uk breteren.

In the U.S. there is no gun law that was ever passed that could be proven to prevent crime.   We used to have to sign for ammo... in the 2 or 3 decades that it was done not one crime was ever solved by it... the expense and inconvienience was horrendous... and all because some liberals "felt" that it was obvious that it would work.

When it comes to self defense and the defense of others.... nothing is "obvious"...  the 2 million or so concealled carry permit holders in the U.S. are not going around shooting people over arguements or cutting in lines or fender benders or anything else... they kill badguys once in a while.   It was another boogie man the lefties came up with to scare our women into taking our guns away.

lazs