Author Topic: Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?  (Read 1512 times)

Offline Arlo

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2004, 09:51:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Why... that would just be suicide!



I like how the guy on the right is leaning over to make sure his "face" gets in the shot.

Offline beet1e

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2004, 11:15:35 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
hi beet.. are you talking about iranian civilians or british civilians or American civilians and are you comparing nukes to handguns?

lazs
How many questions is that?! ;)

I'm talking about any civilians where, as RTR pointed out, it's not possible to ensure responsibility. Nukes and guns come under the same general heading: Weapons capable of causing death with consummate ease.

Offline AKIron

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2004, 11:57:04 AM »
Let's encourage all Middle Eastern countries to build nukes. First though we need to line our gas tanks with lead and figure out how to contain the radioactive emissions. ;)
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Halo

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2004, 01:24:06 PM »
Does the world have the right to deny any sovereign nation the right to do what it wants until it demonstrates not just capability but intent to use that capability adversely against other nations (the classic questions of deterrence and preemptive strike)?

Has the globe become the United States of Earth (only coincidentally sounding like the United States of America)?

If you're a big enough and powerful enough nation, expect lots of advice but minimum interference.  If you're a small enough and weak enough nation, expect lots of "help" commensurate with your value to the big and powerful nations.
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Offline Arlo

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2004, 04:45:43 PM »
Common sense seems quite an alien concept to some in this thread.

Every nation's right to make nukes??? Geez. Don't let me see pacifists making this their "battle cry."

1. Is it just me or does anyone else here understand that the single most dangerous weapon of MASS destruction in the world to date (and most likely ever will be in the future) is a nuclear warhead?

2. Does anyone here actually think that radical suicide terrorists who apparently don't actually give a damn about reprisals for their actions against their own people can grasp what "mutually assured destruction" actually means or care what it means if they could?

3. Anyone here remember the cold war at all? Anyone here actually think that the threat posed by the arsenals that still exist evaporated with the end of the cold war? Anyone think that a missle silo with a radical muslim in it who would slit his family's throats if his local holyman told him it was the will of Allah is a good thing to add to the scenario?

4. Anyone here wish the U.S. could have kept the knowledge of nuclear weaponry their little secret? Or at least slowed down the proliferation? Or maybe even never have invented nukes at all?

Or am I hearing some of you correctly when you actually express your opinion that the U.N. (that's right kids ... the U.N.) has no business trying to stop countries from developing their own nuclear devices .... especially when said countries have not been able to show any degree of stability or rationality when it comes to peaceful coexistance with their neighboring countries?

:lol :aok

Offline Pei

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2004, 08:12:52 PM »
In an ideal world non-one would have nukes (or other weapons of mass destruction).

But considering that we live in the real world I'd prefer it no more countries gain access to nuclear weapons than we already have.

I am certainly more conerned about goverments with little democratic and legal responsibility gaining access to them than more stable countries.

I do find it a bit two-faced that the west seems happy for Pakistan to have nukes: it's doesn't have a shred of democratic responsibility, it is the home of many Sunni fanatics and thier schools and it has already proven lax in handling the technology and the responsibility.

Offline Masherbrum

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2004, 08:24:58 PM »
I'm just watching the purse-swinging, and pom pom tourney.  

Karaya

PS - SlowHand, I concur with some of your points.

Personally, I say screw that entire region, they could get one on the balck market if they want.  Money talks, bulls^&t walks.

Karaya
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http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
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Offline Toad

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2004, 08:44:57 PM »
Yeah baby! Nukes for everyone! After all, all countries/leaders are the same. No one country is any more trustworthy with a nuke than any other.

The sooner we allow nukes to spread around to the nutbag leaders of the world, the sooner one of those bozos will use some.

Clearly, that's what it's going to take to remind some people of why the NPT and the IAEA were brought into being in the first place.

Course, a few million more will have to die to remind them but hey...
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Habu

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2004, 08:45:15 PM »
Lets change the topic.

How about should we allow Charles Manson to own automatic weapons and let him out of jail 50 years early?

Offline Masherbrum

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2004, 08:47:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah baby! Nukes for everyone! After all, all countries/leaders are the same. No one country is any more trustworthy with a nuke than any other.

The sooner we allow nukes to spread around to the nutbag leaders of the world, the sooner one of those bozos will use some.

Clearly, that's what it's going to take to remind some people of why the NPT and the IAEA were brought into being in the first place.

Course, a few million more will have to die to remind them but hey...


The WMD in Iraq had "Made in the USA" on some of them, if you get down to it Toad.  The bottom line is this region has been torn since Mesopetamia.   it will never change, Nukes, or no nukes.

<>

Karaya
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Offline Halo

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2004, 11:53:56 PM »
There are many nations I personally would not like to see have nuclear weapons.  Nevertheless, whether or not the U.S. or U.N. favors a particular nation, are all nations sovereign or not?

Let's see ... Israel is the only nation I can recall that attacked another nation's ability to make nuclear weapons when it bombed the Iraqi reactor.  

That attack was quite amazing.  No war.  Just unilateral denuking of one nation by another nation.  

Any other examples?  

Can't think of any.

Nobody bombed Pakistan's nuclear bomb making facility (whatever or wherever that is).

Nobody bombed India's.  

Nobody bombed China's.

Or Russia's.

Or Israel's if it has any, or a couple other nations that might have nukes.  

If they decided that developing nuclear weapons would be in their absolute best national interests, would it be okay for nations such as Canada or Belgium or Thailand or Turkey to develop nuclear weapons?  If they did, would world consensus be to bomb their nuclear production facilities?  

Libya suddenly has about-faced and supposedly dropped out of nuclear arms contention.

The U.S. has been trying to negotiate North Korea out of making nukes but they may already have them.

The U.S. doesn't want Iran to get nukes but they insist on their right to make them if they want to.

So just because the U.S. or even the U.N. does not want a nation to have nukes, is there some inherent right to attack that capability even BEFORE the sovereign nation develops nukes that it may assert are only to DETER other nations from using nukes against it?

The U.S., first to develop and use nuclear weapons, historically has said it keeps nukes to preserve the peace and deter nuclear attack on it and its allies.

Other nuclear powers have claimed the same motivation.

Deterrence is the traditional justification for having nuclear weapons.  

The present nuclear nonproliferation consensus is basically we (the nuclear club) got ours and you (the non nuclear nations) can't have any.  It's for your own good -- trust us.  

Preemptive (or sneak or surprise) attack is another case entirely.

It's like Momma or Daddy taking dangerous things away from their children ... or adults taking big weapons away from their enemies.  

Quite an insulting and infuriating thing to receive if you are a sovereign nation.

Wouldn't it be loverly if every nation would accept the nuclear nonproliferation treaty and its status quo.  But for those nations that don't, preemptive denuking is legally and morally questionable, dangerous, arrogant, provoking, presumptuous, and likely to cause either (1) at minimum sulking and hatred of the attacker or (2) enough anger to oppose the attacker by any and all means indefinitely.

It's war without the messy followup ... until the nuclear wannabe eventually extracts some form of revenge.  

Whatever made Libya change its mind, let's hope it reaches North Korea and Iran too.  

In international relations, behind the smiles the maxim often is something like Teddy Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick."   Even then, the world will never be safe until all nations and all their people feel secure and respected.  

So, Gunthr, you started this thread and reaped all these opinions.  You tell us:  Does the world have the right to deny Iran nuclear capability?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
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Offline Masherbrum

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Should the world allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2004, 12:14:07 AM »
"We knew the world could not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita: "I am became Death, the destroyers of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another."

J. Robert Oppenheimer in 1945

Karaya
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