Author Topic: Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr  (Read 2338 times)

Offline xrtoronto

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2004, 08:55:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So before you go mounthing off how Isreal is some terrorist state, lets have some perspective...


I'll stop referring to Israel as a terrorist state when they stop state sponsored terror.

Offline Rino

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2004, 08:56:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
what did I say that was negative about your country. I was applauding them for controling this cleric politically. What is negative about that.

The thread starter is negative about your country. he is critisising the administrations handling of this cleric. I am supporting them.

So what are you talking about?

Stork asks me if Im a muslim. why didnt you pipe in about that? You dont care about that I guess. I ask him if hes a nazi and thats real bad.
Listen to yourself.
Eagler posts here that he thinks board members want to kill his family..You didnt post anything about that..
Your not a voice of reason here GH. Dont kid yourself.  Your a hardline neo conservative brain washed war monger. You dont represent your country you represent the powers that currently control it. Critism of them or you or stork is not critism of America no matter how you wished it was so.


     And implying the US has installed a dictatorship in Iraq is not
negative huh?  Good thing the US exists, or you canucks would
have nothing to whine about.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline SLO

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2004, 08:57:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
And implying the US has installed a dictatorship in Iraq is not
negative huh?  Good thing the US exists, or you canucks would
have nothing to whine about.



time will tell....

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2004, 09:20:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SLO
that goes back way before WW2.....

chit these 2 peoples have been fighting each other for hundreds of years


Not really.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2004, 09:23:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
I'll stop referring to Israel as a terrorist state when they stop state sponsored terror.


Since you consider any acts in Israels self defense to be terrorism I dont think they they will stop. You know they prolly dont want to risk being wiped out as a people again...

But maybe I presume too much?  What can israel do in self defense that you wouldnt consider terrorism?

Offline Crumpp

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2004, 09:24:36 PM »
Just as I told a guy from Israel:


In the Arab-Israeli conflict NO SIDE is without blood on their hands, innocent blood at that.  It is also a very dark and muddy bit of History.

It is essentially a Land conflict, as I understand it.  The Israeli's conquered a portion of Palestine to make Israel.  Yeah, if I were Palestinian that would piss me off.  Once more they had Western backing when they did it.  Not good.

That was also 60 years ago and after the Holocaust it eased European consciousness to help them have their own country.

The surrounding Arab countries vowed to destroy Israel and tried to do so.  During the subsequent conflicts Israel grabbed more of Palestine, as did Palestinian "fellow" Arab nations.  In the end the Palestinians lost their homes and became refugees in their own land.

At this point the Palestinian cause is a just one.

The Palestinian's responded with International Terrorism and allowing organizations like HAMAS to enter their mainstream politics.  Bad choice of tactics, in my opinion.  Extremism is dangerous and now only serves to rob the Palestinian people of legitimacy.  Had the Palestinian's adopted a peaceful non-violent campaign for their own country, I am sure it would have happened.  Look at India.  The Western world, which backed Israel, simply would not have stood for Israeli tanks against innocents.

Today the Palestinian cause has been robbed of legitimacy.  Known INTERNATIONAL terrorist are not only harbored by them but celebrated instead of being treated as sick criminals.  Several times Palestinian's have been offered their own country.  Rather than accept it as a beginning and establish themselves as responsible members of the international community, they come across as more interested in the destruction of Israel than in gaining their own permanent home.

Now with the latest attempt by Israel to gain a measure of security by building a wall after the peace talk breakdowns we see a renewed suicide bomber campaign.  Almost Daily we see innocent Israeli's killed while at the mall, restaurant's, and bus stops.  Children, women, the old and sick none are spared Palestinian anger.  The west will never see a few kilometers of land worth a child's life.  Israel retaliates and the blood flows.

So what are the Israeli's to do surrounded by their enemies?  What are the Palestinian's to do with their Homes unjustly taken?  Well, the first step begins when both sides tire of the bloodshed.  When the moderates on both sides get tired of the extremist killing off their sons and daughters only then can peace begin.  There are moderates on both sides who want peace.  I am sure that shortly after that the world will see a measure of Justice for the Palestinian people.  Although NOTHING remotely resembling what HAMAS wants or calls justice.  The West calls that GENOCIDE.
In fact the Palestinian people would do well to condemn HAMAS and take meaningful action to destroy their organization.  That would certainly serve their cause more than anything else they could do at this moment in time.
 
Crumpp

Offline NUKE

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2004, 09:32:39 PM »
Israel didn't take any "Palestinian land, as there is no such nation as "Palestine". Israel held land from Jordan, Egypt and Syria after those nations and others announced their intentions and prepared to wipe Israel off the map in 1967.

The biggest farse of the "Palestinian" cause is that they are a seperate race of Arabs who have no "homeland". There is no such thing and never has been such a thing as a "Palestinian" race or county. The land they claim as a "homeland" is just land that was taken from Jordan after 1967 for the most part.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2004, 09:46:52 PM »
http://www.palestinehistory.com/war.htm

Nuke,

The land just didn't appear out of sea for the Israeli's to live on.  People were living there and their homes were removed so the State of Israel could be formed.  It didn't happen in a vaccuum and just because some European looks at a map and says "This land is for the Jew's" Does not make it right.

Facts are the land was unjustly taken.

With that said it also a fact that Israel is an estabilished country at this point AND a respected member of the world community.  At least in the eyes of the majority of the worlds governments.  Israel is not going anywhere.

Crumpp

Offline Sandman

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2004, 09:52:50 PM »
Capt. Pork is spot on. Seared ahi is some damn good eatin'. :D
sand

Offline NUKE

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2004, 09:57:29 PM »
I agree that land was taken to form Israel. The people living in that land which is now Israel where Arabs and Jews and mostly nomads. No country ever existed there other than Israel in ancient times.

It was only after the Arabs tried to wipe Israel from existance begining in 1948, that a lot of these Arabs fled the area due to war. Nobody kicked anyone from their lands, they fled from the land after their fellow Arabs started a war to decimate Israel.

Now the "Palestinians" lead, by the Egyptian Arafat, claim that area as their "homeland" begining in 1967 for the most part, which is a farse of the highest magnitude and that is what I have a problem with.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2004, 09:59:53 PM »
BTW,

That is a Palestinian site.  So take it with a grain of salt.  It allows you to see their view on the conflict.  Again it is DEEP and MUDDY.


I especially like the "Massive US aid" that kept Israel afloat!

Crumpp

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2004, 10:00:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Israel didn't take any "Palestinian land, as there is no such nation as "Palestine". Israel held land from Jordan, Egypt and Syria after those nations and others announced their intentions and prepared to wipe Israel off the map in 1967.

The biggest farse of the "Palestinian" cause is that they are a seperate race of Arabs who have no "homeland". There is no such thing and never has been such a thing as a "Palestinian" race or county. The land they claim as a "homeland" is just land that was taken from Jordan after 1967 for the most part.


I dont like this argument at all, in fact I think it borders on serious racism.

The palestenians are not a seperate race of arabs, true. But neither are the british are a seperate race of white people from the french - but we have france and we have the UK.  

The simple fact is there is a group of pepople living there who have been living there for a long time and many of them are now for a few decades displaced from their land their homes  because of this conflict.

So please no more of this nonsense trying to dismiss their claim to this land.

Otherwise we can open up a discussion as to the ethnic orgins of Israelies and what exactly it means to be "Jewish."

Offline xrtoronto

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2004, 10:07:52 PM »
Are Palestinians disliked as a people? What I mean is they don't seem to be receiving any help from any of their Arab neighbours.
That is something else I don't understand.

I recall that recently you, Flyboy and me spoke in another thread briefly re: Israel. Both of you impressed me by acknowledging problems originating on both sides of this conflict. Much too often on this BBS is the inability to see some things in terms of other than just 'black & white'. I am glad the both of you see beyond it and examine the 'grey' areas.

I also believe that your reference to Gandhi is a very good one. He has long been one of my heros. "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." He has a wonderful place in our worlds history. Palestinians would do well to emmulate him.

Crumpp, once again I want to say I appreciate the time and effort you put into your response. I thought the final paragraph was of particular significance because it reflects my feelings.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 10:40:41 PM by xrtoronto »

Offline NUKE

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2004, 10:08:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I dont like this argument at all, in fact I think it borders on serious racism.

The palestenians are not a seperate race of arabs, true. But neither are the british are a seperate race of white people from the french - but we have france and we have the UK.  

The simple fact is there is a group of pepople living there who have been living there for a long time and many of them are now for a few decades displaced from their land their homes  because of this conflict.

So please no more of this nonsense trying to dismiss their claim to this land.

Otherwise we can open up a discussion as to the ethnic orgins of Israelies and what exactly it means to be "Jewish."


Well to understand the concept of "Palestinian homeland" claimed by Arafat and the PLO after 1967, you have to buy into the lie that this was the historical homeland of "Palestine" which is utterly false.

People where displaced in a lot of counties after WWI and WWII and the world map changed in many places. The Arabs and Jews both inhabited this area from ancient times, but only Israel ever had a nation there. The only thing that changed after WWII was that the Jews where given back their homeland, one tenth of one percent of the land in the middle east.

Offline NUKE

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Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2004, 10:19:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
Are Palestinians disliked as a people? What I mean is they don't seem to be receiving any help from any of their Arab neighbours.
That is something else I don't understand.



when you begin to understand history rather than propoganda, then you can make up your own mind.

Did you know that the "Palestinians" first tried to take over Jordan BEFORE they claimed a homeland in Israel?

They started a war in Jordan and tried to claim Jordan as their "homeland" and nearly succeded. The King of Jordan kicked Arafat and the "Palestinians" out of Jordan. That is one reason why some of their fellow Arabs do not support the "Palestinians"