Author Topic: WTG Mass :)  (Read 1155 times)

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2004, 01:09:00 PM »
Or driving-it sure does kill and maim a lot of people, and the total costs are astronomical.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2004, 01:13:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
How much money would we save if we banned swimming?   Or rock climbing... how bout parachuting or scuba diving?   maybe overeating?   or simply ban some types of foods?  


Food laws were part of Billary's master health care plan.  She had her version of PNAC coming up with crazy **** like that.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2004, 01:14:05 PM »
I guess my point is that we shouldn't put a price tag on freedom.    They tried to put a price tag on booze use once.     We are putting one on drugs right now.  

lazs

Offline loser

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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2004, 01:26:52 PM »
The province i live in (yes funked a historically democratic socialist province) will be smoke free in all public and public access buildings in January.

That means everything from gubment buildings to pubs.

So far, the only city in the province that has be smoke free has been my hometown of Moose Jaw (shut up.) I spend prolly 10-20% of my time there as it is fairly close and I still have a ton of family/friends there.

Moose Jaw has been smoke free since this past February. At first there was a bit of a decline in people going out to the pubs, casino, clubs, and bingo halls. The real problem was people ditching on bar tabs because they informed the staff of the pub that they were just "slipping out for a smoke" and then bugger off.

Things have pretty much settled down by now though. The decrease in patronage at traditional "smoker friendly" establishments has gone back up to near normal levels and the problems with people ditching on tabs has all but dissapeared.

As a smoker' I would like to whine about the city and upcoming province-wide ban of smoking in public places, but I really can't justify such crying.

What i mean is, why should my practices that are unhealthy adversely affect those who choose to abstain from this unhealthy practice? I'm not so much talking about pubs and nightclubs and what-not, but more in places such as restaurants and coffee houses where there might be kids there that dont really have the choice to get up and leave if they are bothered by second hand smoke.

If i really need a smoke that bad, i can just go outside.

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2004, 01:31:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I guess my point is that we shouldn't put a price tag on freedom.    They tried to put a price tag on booze use once.     We are putting one on drugs right now.  

lazs


Your *freedom* has a high price.  It endangers others.  The next time you're in a theater, why don't you stand up and scream "fire"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/01/health/main547249.shtml

(AP) Heart attacks in Helena, Mont., fell by more than half last summer after voters passed a broad indoor smoking ban, suggesting that cleaning up the air in bars and restaurants quickly improves health for everyone, a study found.

Doctors said their study, which they described as a kind of "natural experiment," is the first to examine what happens to public health when people stop smoking ? and breathing secondhand smoke ? in public places.

The doctors, themselves backers of the ban, acknowledged the effects need to be demonstrated in a larger locale. But despite the small numbers involved, they said Helena's experience offers a clear hint that the change reduces the risk of heart attacks for smokers and nonsmokers alike from virtually the moment it goes into effect.

People who worry about secondhand smoke often fear lung cancer most, but that takes years of exposure.

Smoking is also a powerful trigger of heart attacks and it works quickly to increase the risk by raising blood pressure, increasing the tendency of blood to make clots and other ways.

The American Heart Association estimates 35,000 nonsmokers die each year from the effects of secondhand smoke on the heart. It said the Helena data should encourage more cities to limit smoking.

Helena's smoking ban was adopted by voters in June and lasted for six months, until enforcement was suspended after a legal challenge. It "led to an immediate and dramatic decline in the number of heart attacks we saw," Dr. Richard Sargent said.

Heart attacks climbed back to their usual level after smoking returned to bars, restaurants, casinos, bowling alleys and other public places in December.

Sargent, who with co-author Dr. Robert Shepard encouraged passage of the ordinance, presented the data Tuesday to applause at the annual scientific meeting in Chicago of the American College of Cardiology.

"It is an extremely important study with implications for all cities," said Dr. Guy Reeder of the Mayo Clinic.

Dr. Richard Pasternak, director of preventive cardiology at Massachusetts General Hospital, cautioned that because of the small number of heart attacks in Helena, the true effect of a smoking ban may differ.

Nevertheless, he said, "It's very plausible that you could see this kind of broad effect. It just takes one cigarette to make a vulnerable plaque rupture," triggering a heart attack.

The doctors kept track of all heart attacks in Helena, population 26,000, and compared that with the previous four years, adjusting the figures for seasonal ups and downs. During the six months the ordinance was enforced, heart attacks in Helena dropped from an average of seven a month to three.

They found the smoking ban appeared to have its biggest effect on smokers. Their incidence of heart attacks dropped by three-quarters, compared with two-thirds for former smokers and one-half for nonsmokers.

"This is a tiny, little community in the middle of nowhere," Sargent said. "This study needs to be replicated in New York City."

A rule that took effect in New York on Sunday bans smoking in city workplaces. Last week, New York passed a statewide smoking ban, joining California and Delaware with stringent rules on indoor smoking. Dozens of smaller cities and towns around the country have similar rules.

The Helena study is likely to provide ammunition for those backing these bans. "This gives us real data and proof that this needs to be done," said Karla Cutting, a spokeswoman for a Chicago campaign to prohibit workplace smoking.

Offline loser

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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2004, 01:36:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
boy... you guys are sure quick to ban what other people do so long as you don't enjoy it.... The best excuse is that it saves you money...

How much money would we save if we banned swimming?   Or rock climbing... how bout parachuting or scuba diving?   maybe overeating?   or simply ban some types of foods?  

lazs


Saw this reply coming lazs (and i knew it would be from you,) and that is a valid point. Your point being, I think, that individual freedom shouldnt be restricted by the whole, or majority, or women voters.

Like your freedom to drive your elkie that pollutes the air shouldnt affect the health of the guy who walks or rides his bike to work.

Straw man if i ever saw one.

And sure, I should be able to light up a smoke in a daycare if it came down to individual rights being primary in EVERY case.

But where I live, my individual rights are subject to limits that are demonstably justified in a free and democratic society.

Fine by me.

Offline CMC Airboss

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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2004, 01:36:37 PM »
Its about time.   I played clubs for years in that area.  Some of my guitar cases and speaker cabs still smell of smoke even after relocating to the west coast 6 years ago.  It was just nausiating to smell like a smoker the next day - clothes, equipment, etc.   And wow, imagine being able to see all the way across a crowded club at midnight!

I agree with Modas, slap the tax on the packs but I'd still prefer them to smoke outside.

Sixpence, the one flaw with your comment is that most people don't stop smoking when it becomes inconvenient.  Smoking was banned in my workplace several years ago and now they're gone for 10 minutes (or more) out of every half hour.  Most of that time is the walking "commute" to the outside smoking areas.

MiG

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2004, 02:29:29 PM »
lets get this straight.... I don't smoke.   I hate the smell of it and I agree that people should not be allowed to smoke in public buildings.   This has nothing at all to do with private buildings like resteraunts or bars..  if people wish to avoid them then the law should read that a sign on the door  shall be in plain view stating wether the establishment is a smoking or non smoking one.

so far as my hot rods go...  they are legal and probly put out less pollution than most since I don't put that many miles on them anyway... spilling a cup of gas probly puts out more... I have an electric lawnmower and edger so probly pollute less than the bike riding weed eater lawn blowing volvo driver..

now, back to the subject... loser and curly are taliking about two different things... curly wants to save money by limiting the amount people who smoke... smoke...  curly feels that limiting peoples freedom to smoke in a private building may save him some money so it is worth it.  this of course fails to take into consideration that people who choose to enter a smoke environment do so of their own free will.  

loser simply feels that public and private should be the same thing... he feels the government has as much right to restrict you in a day care say (his example) as it does in your own home.

both arguements are silly and self serving for obvious reasons and lead to socialism of the most distasteful sort.

lazs

Offline loser

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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2004, 03:29:55 PM »
Lazs I think something was lost in the meaning of my posts.

First off, i have nothing against your "hot rods." If you recall, I own a 70 Duster with a 340. It prolly pollutes worse than your elkie and I'm fine with that.

My basic point (especially in my first post) that the sad fact is some people don't have common sense.


As I was told some 15 years ago by my Dad, "Son, they have to have lots of laws because they can seem to legislate common sense."


I actually share your feelings lazs (or so I think) on individual freedom restricting laws.

You and I dont need gun registration (like we have here) and laws that are tough on street racing. You know not to drink and drive.

You know your stuff about guns and you know how to keep them safe. You know when you are gonna giv'er in the elkie or any other of your cars you dont do it in a residential area or where innocent people are going to get hurt (or at least you do it where the chances are greatly reduced.) You know not to drink and then go for a drive.

Same goes for what I said about smoking. I have never smoked around a baby, infant, or someone who was in their teens that didnt already smoked. Heck, even if their is an adult that prefers that i dont smoke, I won't

See? common sense.

Unfortunately, not everyone has this commodity. Therefore some of us have to be limited as individuals as to what we can or cannot do.

You arent responsible for restrictive gun laws, smog laws, or smoking laws. Neither am I. But sometimes you (and I) have to be held responsible and made to pay for other people's stupid mistakes and irresponsibilty.

And in response to what you said, it is quite the inverse. The gubment has every right to restrict what I do in public (eg. smoke in a daycare to use your example) if i can't use my own head and figure out if what i have to gain from my own pleasure (smoking) is going to not outweigh the adverse affects on others who have no choice in their health being hurt.

What I do in my own home is my own business. Legislated under my own law of "common sense"

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2004, 03:37:42 PM »
smoker = stinker !

:D
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The statement above is false.

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2004, 03:39:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

both arguements are silly and self serving for obvious reasons and lead to socialism of the most distasteful sort.
lazs


It's silly to note that exposure to second hand smoke leads to a 40% increase in heart attacks?  I guess it's self-serving since I am interested in my survival ... pardon me :)

Sometimes Lazs, I believe you don't spend any time thinking about the issues, you just react. :)

curly

Offline rpm

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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2004, 05:14:59 PM »
Let's see. Cigarette smoke is dangerous to those that don't smoke so it should be banned.

I don't live in Dallas/Ft.Worth, but I have to breathe all the pollution that floats to my house from the 1,000,000 cars on the freeway, the 1000's of airliners that fly in and out of DFW and the commercial pollution from manufacturing.

Should we ban cars, trucks, planes and factories? We would have healthier air and we would all live longer by your theory. :rolleyes:

Some people are allergic to perfume. Should we ban that? Those people would live longer healthier lives.

Now here's the kicker... Guns kill and injure innocent people. Should we ban those, or put a $10 a round tax on ammunition?

C'mon, all you guys screaming about the public health danger...sign up for the GUN BAN! It was your idea to start with.:rolleyes:
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Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2004, 05:27:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
Let's see. Cigarette smoke is dangerous to those that don't smoke so it should be banned.

I don't live in Dallas/Ft.Worth, but I have to breathe all the pollution that floats to my house from the 1,000,000 cars on the freeway, the 1000's of airliners that fly in and out of DFW and the commercial pollution from manufacturing.

Should we ban cars, trucks, planes and factories? We would have healthier air and we would all live longer by your theory. :rolleyes:

Some people are allergic to perfume. Should we ban that? Those people would live longer healthier lives.

Now here's the kicker... Guns kill and injure innocent people. Should we ban those, or put a $10 a round tax on ammunition?

C'mon, all you guys screaming about the public health danger...sign up for the GUN BAN! It was your idea to start with.:rolleyes:


I know of no studies which indicate airplane exhaust in moderate amounts presents a health hazard.  Similarly for automobile exhaust  properly equipped with catalytic converters.

You can have my guns right after you pry them from my cold, dead fingers.  

Second hand cigarette smoke is an established health hazard.  I don't mind you dying from it, but I object to public funds being spent to maintain your health.

It wouldn't be enough for cigarette smokers to give up medicare/mediaid benefits.  Part of any hospital bill includes a fee which is used to pay for folks without medical benefits.

In summary, I don't care if you shoot yourself in the head, but please, don't ask me to bury your sorry carcass later.

curly

Offline rpm

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Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline loser

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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2004, 05:47:07 PM »
RPM, no doubt where your vote is going this year.

The slippery slope arguement is such garbage.

A public smoking ban wont lead to gun restrictions, a ban on cars/trucks/whatever, perfume, industry, or whatever else you would like to dream up.