Author Topic: Avro Arrow  (Read 5291 times)

Offline Krusher

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Avro Arrow
« on: July 06, 2004, 10:42:41 PM »
KINGSTON—The quest to find nine invaluable pieces of Canadian aerospace history took a controversial step forward as two Canadian Forces warships joined the underwater hunt for Avro Arrow models lying in Lake Ontario.

It's the first government foray into an ongoing search by several groups for the 1/8-scale models of the fabled plane. The models were crashed into the lake in the 1950s during production tests for what would become the only Canadian-made supersonic fighter jet.

Yesterday, two navy ships on regular training missions in the Great Lakes, the HMCS Glace Bay and the HMCS Kingston, used sonar to scan the lake bottom for any signs of the models.

They will then use a remote controlled submersible vehicle called the Phantom to investigate likely targets and to relay live camera images.

Capt. Paul Doucette, an Armed Forces spokesperson, said they found nothing on the first day of the three-day exercise. He admitted that the "chances of finding anything were very, very remote."

"It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. (The models) have been there for quite some time. All sorts of things could have happened to them."

The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.

But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.

Bill Coyle, 72, who was an aeronautical engineer with A.V. Roe in Malton when the company developed the long-range fighter for the RCAF to intercept Russian bombers over Canada's north, asked the military to join the search.

"There's quite a bit of Canadian pride in that. (The Arrow) was years ahead of its time," said Coyle, patron of the Aerospace Heritage Foundation of Canada in Toronto.

"The name said it all. It flew like a great white arrow" on test flights over Toronto, Coyle said, even breaking the sound barrier over the city with a thunderous roar, something planes are not permitted to do today.

The models, three metres long and two metres wide, were fired from Point Petre, a small peninsula west of Kingston between 1954 and 1957. They carried on-board sensors that transmitted flight data and were also filmed from shore to fine-tune the plane's aerodynamics.

Some of the other search groups are unhappy about the navy's involvement although, no matter who finds them, the parts will inevitably end up in a museum.

Andrew Hibbert, president of Arrow Recovery Canada in London, Ont., called for the warships to wait until his search crew, which is scouring the same area, has finished.

"Our only beef with the navy is if they are scanning the area based on information they have gotten from our Web site," after years of research, he said.

"Up until this year, they had no interest."

But Coyle, who provided the navy with information, laughed at the idea that his group had taken material from anyone else, given that many of his members worked on the project for A.V. Roe.

He said his group bought the lost models from the Canadian government a few years ago with the understanding that if recovered, they would be donated to museums.

Offline xrtoronto

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Avro Arrow
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2004, 10:46:57 PM »
Avro Arrow


Offline Thrawn

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Avro Arrow
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2004, 08:40:56 AM »
NEVAR FORGAT TEH ARROW!!  :mad:

storch

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Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2004, 11:48:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
KINGSTON—The quest to find nine invaluable pieces of Canadian aerospace history took a controversial step forward as two Canadian Forces warships joined the underwater hunt for Avro Arrow models lying in Lake Ontario.

It's the first government foray into an ongoing search by several groups for the 1/8-scale models of the fabled plane. The models were crashed into the lake in the 1950s during production tests for what would become the only Canadian-made supersonic fighter jet.

Yesterday, two navy ships on regular training missions in the Great Lakes, the HMCS Glace Bay and the HMCS Kingston, used sonar to scan the lake bottom for any signs of the models.

They will then use a remote controlled submersible vehicle called the Phantom to investigate likely targets and to relay live camera images.

Capt. Paul Doucette, an Armed Forces spokesperson, said they found nothing on the first day of the three-day exercise. He admitted that the "chances of finding anything were very, very remote."

"It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. (The models) have been there for quite some time. All sorts of things could have happened to them."

The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.

But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.

Bill Coyle, 72, who was an aeronautical engineer with A.V. Roe in Malton when the company developed the long-range fighter for the RCAF to intercept Russian bombers over Canada's north, asked the military to join the search.

"There's quite a bit of Canadian pride in that. (The Arrow) was years ahead of its time," said Coyle, patron of the Aerospace Heritage Foundation of Canada in Toronto.

"The name said it all. It flew like a great white arrow" on test flights over Toronto, Coyle said, even breaking the sound barrier over the city with a thunderous roar, something planes are not permitted to do today.

The models, three metres long and two metres wide, were fired from Point Petre, a small peninsula west of Kingston between 1954 and 1957. They carried on-board sensors that transmitted flight data and were also filmed from shore to fine-tune the plane's aerodynamics.

Some of the other search groups are unhappy about the navy's involvement although, no matter who finds them, the parts will inevitably end up in a museum.

Andrew Hibbert, president of Arrow Recovery Canada in London, Ont., called for the warships to wait until his search crew, which is scouring the same area, has finished.

"Our only beef with the navy is if they are scanning the area based on information they have gotten from our Web site," after years of research, he said.

"Up until this year, they had no interest."

But Coyle, who provided the navy with information, laughed at the idea that his group had taken material from anyone else, given that many of his members worked on the project for A.V. Roe.

He said his group bought the lost models from the Canadian government a few years ago with the understanding that if recovered, they would be donated to museums.


Who can figure out the Canadians.  The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.

Offline Chairboy

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Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2004, 11:54:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Who can figure out the Canadians.  The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.

It truly would have.  I find it strange that the old century series of fighters were faster then most of today's inventory.  I guess that back in the 70s the decision was made that all fighting would be subsonic so they made planes more maneuverable.  

...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.
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Offline Thrawn

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Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2004, 12:03:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Who can figure out the Canadians.  The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.


An idiot named General Perkes (or some such) was convinced by the US military that missles were the way of the future and that fighters were obsolete...

...****.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2004, 12:49:22 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.


it's retired.



before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.
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Offline gofaster

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Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2004, 01:04:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.

But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.


Obviously they had to destroy all evidence of the program to hide the fact that the Arrow was using alien technology reverse-engineered from UFO's that went down in New Mexico and Nevada the '40s and '50s.  The parts were smuggled in tourists' Airstream trailers from the Grand Canyon up across the country to a secret border location in North Dakota.  A few even crossed through Niagara.  Only nobody in the Canadian ministry would come forward to admit it since they had to answer to the UK and US governments.  They didn't want to upset the balance of power!  After all, a strong Canadian military would've been perceived as a threat to the US government and hostilities could've broken out.  JFK knew this and he had to be rubbed out before he could initiate an arms race.  That's why Washington has always insisted that Canada be treated as the distant step-child politically and militarily - because they knew that Canadian beer was superior to American chemical hogwash!  So, as anybody can see, the Arrow program had to be terminated before McNamara found out and blabbed to the military-industrial complex.  The repercussions of this are still felt today - just look at how American pressure caused a gold medal to be split between the Russian figure skaters and the Canadian pair!  I read it on the Internet so it must be true!

Offline Thrawn

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Avro Arrow
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2004, 01:19:46 PM »
The engineers that worked on that project went on to become lead engineers for just about every big aircraft manufacture in Britain and the US as well as NASA.  :(

Offline hawker238

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2004, 01:29:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
it's retired.



before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.


What weapons did the A-12 field again?

Offline xrtoronto

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2004, 01:41:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.


Lockheed A-12 Blackbird (60-6925) at the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum in New York. The A-12 was the initial variant of the Blackbird. Although outwardly similar to the later SR-71, it was actually slightly faster and had higher resolution downward photographic capability. The SR-71 differed to the A-12 by also having sideways photographic capability.

SR 71 a12

Offline WilldCrd

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2004, 01:44:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?


IIRC primary armaerment was air to air missles. Heatseeking and radar guided
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Offline gofaster

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2004, 01:46:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?


Simple, really.  It would fly up behind the target plane and jam its pitot tube up the exhaust pipe, disabling the enemy aircraft and forcing it to crash land while the Blackbird continued on its merry way.  It had to use a chase plane to land, however, since the Blackbird's instrumentation would be hosed.

Offline Furious

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avro Arrow
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2004, 01:49:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?
YF-12 Weapon systems.

Offline WilldCrd

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Avro Arrow
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2004, 01:49:55 PM »
Quote
...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.


if IRCC from the wings channel the foxbat couldnt maintain its mach 3 speed for very long and when it did go to mach3 the engines had to be replaced. It also had poor maneuverability especially at low speeds. The F-15 was originally created to counter this threat and after the berlin wall fell it was discovered the the foxbat was  not the plane the west thought it was. It's primary roll was bomber interception with the help of ground based radar helping to vector it to its target.

On a side note the F-14 remains the fastest Fighter with a top speed of mach 2.4 even today {its 30 years old BTW}
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