Author Topic: Question about Head On's (Read 1070 times)

Jase · « **on:** June 29, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »

Greetings,

I've noticed since my return to AH that head on's seem to be used as much or more then when I left last year. Since there is no real penalty in this sim for using such a real life high risk move, I was wondering how much HO's were actually used in WW2? Please only respond with info., and don't let this turn into a ho vs no-ho thread. I am sincerely curious to how much ho's were used in ww2. Common sense would tell me that this would not be a move most would of wanted to perform because of the high risk of being shot or colliding. I am, however, no historian and lack most of the knowledge that you guys maintain. In Aces High, they are used in almost every fight I have been in. Being predominately someone who likes to turn with an opponent, I don't like head-on's. My thrill comes from outturning the enemy. At time though, I do use them. Simply because it seems to be such an integral part of this Sim. From what I have heard, HT feels pretty strongly that the model is correct, and I belive him. Could it be though, that the model is "to correct" for an online sim? The lack of any real penalty for perfoming this risky move might suggest so. I don't know the answer. Anyway, if anyone has any articles or information on the use of the head-on shot in WW2 I would be grateful if you could post it or a link to it. Salute and thanks in advance!

p.s. The game has come a long way since I left, congrats to HT and the design team.

AKHog · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2001, 07:59:00 PM »

If you dont want to head on dont fly directly towards an enemy plane at less then d1000.

-AKHog

Jase · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2001, 08:08:00 PM »

Thanks for the reply AkHog, but I was not asking how to avoid a head one

I was trying to find some information on the tactic used in ww2. Sorry if my post was confusing.

Tac · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2001, 08:23:00 PM »

The Flying Tigers preffered to HO the Nippon Zero's because they had no armour and thus the Japanese pilots would not go for it. They would also HO even when they had alt advantage..in fact, they preffered to, that way the zeke was in an even more serious disadvantage.. turn and give his 6 or dive and give the coming 12 oc hi P40 a clean shot on his entire plane. The AVG's would generally do only one pass in such cases and keep their dive to get away.

The LW loved to HO the B-17's early in the war when the forts had no nose guns.. and even later on they still did because it gave the best chance to down the plane in one pass with the least danger to the german pilot (least when compared to facing the other sides of the fortress).

Dago · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2001, 08:45:00 PM »

I was staying at a hotel in Detroit last fall, and I noticed there was a reunion of P38 pilots from WWII going on.

I got to know many of them, and spent a little time with them. They were excited to have someone interested in them and what they did. They flew in the southern part of the ETO against the Germans.

I asked a few of them if they ever did Head On attacks against other fighters. They responded empathically "YES, we specialized in it".

They explained they did HO's whenever they could against German aircraft for a couple reasons:
1) The P38 had great centerline guns
2) They had no chance if they had to try and turnfight a German aircraft.

They explained that the P38 was very slow to turn in comparison to other fighters.

So, yes, they did HO's, at least in that group.

Dago

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2001, 08:55:00 PM »

AVG as AVG never fought against zeroes. They fought Ki27s and maybe Oscars IIRC.

DamnedATC · « **Reply #6 on:** June 29, 2001, 09:28:00 PM »

Jase

Enjoyed flying with you yesterday. Stega gives you High regards as a 38 pilot from AW.

Read the thread on "Fixing the HO in the game". Some good post in there on your question possibly.

See you up in the 'friendly skies!!

ATC

Montezuma · « **Reply #7 on:** June 29, 2001, 09:31:00 PM »

From Fighter Combat:

"We opened fire together, and immediatly a hail of lead thudded into my Spitfire. One moment the Messerschmitt was a clearly defined shape, its wingspan nicely enclosed within the circle of my reflector sight, and the next it was on top of me, a terrifying blur which blotted out the sky ahead. Then we hit."

Torgo · « **Reply #8 on:** June 29, 2001, 09:31:00 PM »

Head-ons where both planes blazed away were a fairly routine aspect of air combat throughout WWII, in many different AC, and for many different countries. And I've read quite a few pilot accounts.

In fact, a couple days ago, I was reading Hammel's Guadalcanal book, not even looking for accounts of HOs, and found two instances of Hellcats HOing Zeros. They tend to be treated as something unremarkable.

There are aircraft matchups where it is generally to your advantage to HO. I fly 51s mostly and don't try to HO, but I will go out of my way to HO Yak-3s and such, because my conv. is set long, and I know Yak-3 guys set their convergence real short....I get a few pings in and break quickly....often they're crippled, have an engine smoke, etc.

As part of air combat, planes will end up heading right for each other A LOT.

Do people deliberately TRY to HO more in AH than they did in real life? Sure. But that can't be rectified until HTC comes by and kills you for real if you die in AH.

But the mindless buffoons who whine on Ch. 1 the instant anyone in their front hemisphere opens fire on them, or proudly announce that they "don't fire" in HOs are full of it.

The AVG was ORDERED by Chennault to HO as much as possible.

But, there actually were no Zeroes at all in China during the time of operation of the AVG as the AVG. There were a few Zeros in China previous to the US entering the war, and then some well after the era of the AVG had ended.

So they never even SAW a Zero (which was, of course, Navy-only; China was mostly a Japanese Army war.) Got in an argument about this on a different board (non-flight sim or even military) it's amazing how people are incredulous of this. But, of course, there's alarge population of people out there uunaware that Japan had any fighters other than Zeros.

The vast majority of AVG fighter kills were oof fixed-gear Ki-27s generally inferior in every aspect of performance to the P-40 other than maneuverability.

Problem is, it's a better "Story" if the AVG was killing Zeros.

It's also amazing how many people still think the AVG was in combat before Pearl Harbor :-)

Jase · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2001, 09:46:00 PM »

Thanks for the replies guys. Interesting especially about the 38's vs German fighters. I learn something new every day from you guys. I actually got to touch (fondal?) Putt Putt Maru (sp?) P-38 at the Galvestan museum the other day. I think I embarrased my wife when the museum guy had to chase me out from behind the rope, LOL. Again, thanks for the info on the subject of head-on's, and I want to stress that I am trying to learn about the ww2 tactic, not flame it or anyone for using it here in AH.

bloom25 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 29, 2001, 10:25:00 PM »

I've read MANY different books about Navy fighters in the pacific where it is stated that HOs were often used against the Japanese planes.

There were many reasons I saw:

1. It broke up their formation.

2. The Japanese pilots had poor frontal armor, as opposed to the hellcats.

3. Most Japanese pilots usually tried to avoid a HO shot.

4. Some Japanese bombers had a 20mm in the tail, so a HO was the best attack method.

Tac · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2001, 01:36:00 PM »

I stand corrected Torgo. Yet the same point remains: Japanese planes had little or no armour. A HO was something to avoid, specially if all they had was MG's which in most cases the P-40's armour could take on, but the Japanese fighters would see the US bullets rip through their plane.

P38's ho'ing jerry fighters? Heehee, they must not have had icons

humble · « **Reply #12 on:** July 02, 2001, 03:52:00 PM »

I've read 4-5 different books focused on ww2 fighter combat...in all of them it was common for the side that "bounced" to have defending planes turn into them and HO to break up the attack...90% of the "defensive" stories are all the same...we pulled up into attack HO'd em and it dissolved into furball..or we pulled into attack HO'd em and ducked into clouds...I'd say biggest reason they were relatively rare is so many ww2 pilots never saw plane that killed them.