Author Topic: Ok It happened again to me.  (Read 1238 times)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2004, 12:53:07 AM »
Been asking questions about stalls. bozon once told me;

"Once normal airflow is lost over the wings, anything can happen."

 I understand that as 'there's no such thing as an aircraft that is safe from stalls' - especially, when it enters a violent stage.

 We assume the P-38 to be a gentle, forgiving plane in that it has no torque - which, is usually what pulls a plane into a violent spin as it meets a stall.

 However, if for any reason airflow is disrupted while the P-38 enters a stall, I don't think there's any reason to just assume that the P-38, despite all that, will still be a gentle plane.

 Such stalls happen to all aircraft of AH:

* A Spitfire, a forgiving plane with fantastic maneuverability at low speeds and high AoA, will whip into a violent flat spin, which is initiated by the rudder action which spins the plane in its yaw axis 180 degrees and brings the nose over the horizon - when excessive amount of rudder is applied while sudden pull on stick.

* The 190 and 109 have a high tendency of falling into a inverted flat spin when 'whipping the nose down' process during a vertical goes wrong.

* The Ta152 will fall into an almost irrecoverable tail-slide when it goes vertical to 0mph and stays there for too long.

* Even Hurricanes and Zeros, sometimes fall into a nasty situation when the plane meets a stall while the nose is above the horizon.

 
 The problem with most of the above mentioned cases, is typically when massive amount of flap is applied, or when Combat Trim is engaged. Also, it typically happens, when your plane stalls out during a vertical, or when your plane enters a stall during slow maneuvering when nose is above the horizon.

 The flaps and/or combat trim, prevent the plane from nosing down naturally and regaining normal airflow with increasing speed. If you look at the speed guage while in such a state, you will notice that your speed hardly exceeds 200mph during a flat spin where you fall out of the sky.

 What I've learned is, never, ever use combat trim when going vertical. If you fall into a such stall, the first thing you need to do is bring all trim to neutral, throttle down or turn of engines to reduce torque to minimum, engage rudder to opposite direction of spin, and push the stick to heave the nose down. Sometimes, in a flat spin, aileron input can help, so the plane rolls over to one side, gets out of the flat spin and then enter a normal spin.

 ..

Offline MetaTron

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2004, 02:23:09 AM »
The P-38 with no bank and high angle of attack might stall gently, but at a high angle of bank and high g load I don't think gentle is a term I would use.

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10224
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2004, 04:22:59 PM »
Quote
However, if for any reason airflow is disrupted while the P-38 enters a stall, I don't think there's any reason to just assume that the P-38, despite all that, will still be a gentle plane.


You are 100% right.

With that being said I've also flown the P51 just as much if not more than the 38 in AH2. I've taken it to and beyond its limits many times before. Not once did I get into a stall that it took me 10,000 feet to regain control.

I guess its just going to have to be "one of those things" sad but true.

Ah well. With the amount of time I've spent playing AH2 in the last month or so... I doubt I will lose much sleep over the whole thing.

Thanks for your replies.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2004, 04:23:52 PM »
Might be a "twin-engine" thing in the flight model.

Widewing said he found something similar in the Mosquito.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2004, 04:46:45 PM »
Snipped from what I put in the other P-38 thread ...

Last night I was fighting 2 109s or 190s or 1 of each ... all I know is that they had a 1 a 0 and a 9 ... anyways, I attacked one of them that I had the better angle on and pinged him up on multiple passes while avoiding the other one. I finally get nose up (elevator trimmed up to the max and 1 notch of flaps) to the right for a deflection shot and send a stream that cuts his wing off. At this point I am slow but still within the boundries of stall fighting the P-38.

Number 2 is now 1K behind me and zooming up so I kick hard rudder, to swing the nose in the direction that I had established for the deflection shot, to try to get nose down under his zoom.

In the blink of an eye I am spinning counter-clockwise very rapidly. I cut throttle, kick opposite rudder, retract flaps ... I tried everything I could think of and nothing would stop the rapid flat spin. I would say that the spin started at between 3-4K and I ended up in the drink. I was pissed !!! to say the least.

I don't know if the spin was induced correctly for the conditions that I created or if I should have been able to pull out of it, but it just doesn't seem right to me ... I could be wrong.

Also, if I have trimmed for level flight and take my hand off the stick, the plane wants to yaw to the left and it doesn't matter what direction the wind is blowing.

-------------------------------------------

Lockheed produced a series of newsletters called Hangar Flying filled with tips and humorous cartoons.

========== Issue 2 ==================

The '38 is a pilot's dream-come-true when it comes to the stall characteristics. They are unusually good and-although not generally used-are worthwhile investigating so that in an emergency you will know what performance to expect from your ship. We have discovered that the power stall occurs at about 70 M.P.H. with about a 50-foot loss of altitude. The counter rotating propellers eliminate torque and there is no tendency for either wing to dip or fall away.

You will find "she" is just as steady in a power off stall with gear and flaps retracted or extended. One of the finest characteristics of the '38 is the accelerated stall. Such stalls, accompanied by normal buffeting, occur on any ship when the angle of attack is increased to the point that the airflow over the wing becomes turbulent.

As you know, this can happen in sharp turns, pull-outs or other severe maneuvers. The '38 is designed to take the buffeting of the stall and has no tendency to fall off on either wing at any altitude. If combat necessitates, you can hold it in the accelerated stall as long as you can take the buffeting -- the ship will take it much longer. To get out of an accelerated stall immediately, ease up on the stick, permitting the airflow to reestablish normal lift.

====================================

This is not what I am finding when flying the P-38.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10224
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2004, 04:58:59 PM »
Thanks for that info Slapshot.

I hope Pyro or any one of the other HTC staff will take a closer look at the P38. To me, and for all of the reading I have done on it which is fairly extencive, the P38 in AH2 just doesn't seem right in some areas. ( In comaprison) My main concern is in the stal characteristics. Other than that I really enjoy the plane. I do not have the time I used to have to fly it now but the time I have spent in it has been really very enjoyable.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Dux

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7333
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2004, 05:03:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Might be a "twin-engine" thing in the flight model.

Widewing said he found something similar in the Mosquito.



Hmmm... I was about to make the same comment, Urchin. The Mossie has some very unusual (or at least violently different from AH1) stall characteristics now.
Rogue Squadron, CO
5th AF, FSO Squadron, Member

We all have a blind date with Destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2004, 05:11:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Thanks for that info Slapshot.

I hope Pyro or any one of the other HTC staff will take a closer look at the P38. To me, and for all of the reading I have done on it which is fairly extencive, the P38 in AH2 just doesn't seem right in some areas. ( In comaprison) My main concern is in the stal characteristics. Other than that I really enjoy the plane. I do not have the time I used to have to fly it now but the time I have spent in it has been really very enjoyable.


I hope they do too. I know they have bigger fish to fry at the moment, and like you, I am still having fun with the P-38 regardless, so I will wait patiently for them to get their arms around this.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Raptor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7577
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2004, 05:23:13 PM »
Yesterday I was in a turn fight with a zeke. He hit my fuel  so you could see the path I had taken behind me. Well I was in a turn and not exactly sure what happened but I just lost ALL forward momentem. This was in H2H so you could look in external view, I looked at the side view and I was going down at about an 80º angle (judging from the fuel leak). I was able to put out full flaps, wes putting throttle on idle for a minute, then back to full just to see if there was a difference. No matter what I did NOTHING changed the stall; rudder, throttle, anything.
Heck... I was even able to put out my gear and hope for a soft landing (no luck there :lol )

Now some odd reason that doesnt strike me as normal.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 05:25:44 PM by Raptor »

Offline mars01

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4148
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2004, 05:27:08 PM »
Slap your scenario sounds like an induced flat spin.  You were slow nose up.  When you kicked the rudder, what did your nose do?  Did you try to keep it up with further backpressure or let it drop?

If you tried to hold it up you are basically rotating the tail around the nose with yaw and at low speed this would initiate the flat spin, especially if your inertia is still moving in the opposite direction i.e.  before you kicked the rudder.


One thing I have noticed while practicing aerobatic maneuvers in the TA, is consecutive snap rolls will put me into an uncontrollable flat spin in the F6F, LA7 and P47.

I also notice the blurb talks about stalls and not flat spins.  Two very different animals.

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10224
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2004, 05:29:20 PM »
Quote
Now some odd reason that doesnt strike me as normal.


Nope  it doesn't:)
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline _Schadenfreude_

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2004, 05:31:06 PM »
I've seen at least 2 p38's spin in from alt in the last month, have you tried cutting engine, hard rudder, then let plane go into a notmal vertical spin which is easy to get out of?

Offline Scatcat

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2004, 05:53:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You are 100% right.

With that being said I've also flown the P51 just as much if not more than the 38 in AH2. I've taken it to and beyond its limits many times before. Not once did I get into a stall that it took me 10,000 feet to regain control.

I guess its just going to have to be "one of those things" sad but true.

Ah well. With the amount of time I've spent playing AH2 in the last month or so... I doubt I will lose much sleep over the whole thing.

Thanks for your replies.


I have personal experience with the AH1 and AH2 Mustang in a flat spin like the one you have described and lost 10K or more alt.

Offline MetaTron

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2004, 06:01:31 PM »
I tried this offline. I could not recover from flat spin below 7k. At about 8k I was able to get it out, barely. I used an offset forced oscillation until I could keep the nose down, and it came out. I didn't chase the nose, but rather timed the pitch movements with it.

Holding top rudder at the edge of stall will bite you at high bank angles while pulling g's. Again, I think that's the way it should be.

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10224
Ok It happened again to me.
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2004, 06:21:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scatcat
I have personal experience with the AH1 and AH2 Mustang in a flat spin like the one you have described and lost 10K or more alt.


I've never gotten in a stall that I couldn't get out of in a P51. And I spend much of my flying time turn fighting it aginst Niks and spits and 109s ect. NOT once have I gotten into trouble in it that I couldn't recover from. And it sure as hell has never fallen from 15k down to 5 before I could gain control!
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!