Author Topic: The VOSS CONSPIRACY... fascinating new book (Read 124894 times)

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #1575 on:** July 25, 2004, 03:19:05 PM »

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Originally posted by AW=B17=

It seemed like a natural way to go.... back when I was on debate teams - the switchside event was common. The idea being to see which team could argue BOTH sides of the coin the best overall.

Hmmm ... yeah ... that kind of assumes you have close to the same numbers on each side. Or the bomber guys just stay on the attacking side.

But it usually takes a team about 2 or 3 missions to get into the groove. Then the middle three missions are when both sides are at their peak effectiveness. And the last 3 are when people are running on instinct and Hate. That "Game 7" feeling. If things stay close up through about the 5th mission, then end is a really intense.

AW=B17= · « **Reply #1576 on:** July 25, 2004, 05:36:52 PM »

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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
It wasn't the "too sneaky-ness" ... it was the doing crap which he knew damn well wasn't in the spirit of the design and not asking if it was OK and doing it anyway and then whining about the fall-out afterwards.

That stuff really sucks because the CM has to deal with the other team who rightfully feels that they were shafted. And then it sucks again because the next event you gotta spend an evening putting in so many rules stipulations into the write-up to protect against a repeat of that happening again it starts to look like a friggin legal document.

There's a fine line between "too sneaky" and violating spirit. We're talking abou tthe same basic behavior - just differing on degree.

The =GB= I've known is the one that can sneak an entire herd of Buffs (flying sideways?) through a 1/8 mile gap in radar coverage.
And then will then say that "hey - gaps in radar coverage existed in the real world too."

Culero can correct me if I'm mistaken, (and we know he will because he lives to correct me on details) but the *beginning* of the whining in Ploesti was when the buffs (led by GB or he?) went downtown via an "alternate route" so to speak.

Oh, and yes, by the time the SMG was in full swing, there existed a page or so of standard boiler-plate "legalese" to try to head off players commiting "strange behavior". Strange bahavior isn't strictly the pervue of bombers though, I remember RM having to deal with British escourt planes or something that would shut off the engines and glide across the channel to save gas.

Strange bomber behavior though somewhat became "normal" as you could never be sure just *how* the buffs would get to target, just that they were uber motivated to somehow get there. I think =GB= left that legacy to buff drivers in general. Culero will agree that over the years since you left, AW saw some pretty wild buff missions..... LOL.

Let it suffice to say that =GB= and his progeny are still very much alive. If you do a write-up, take that extra paragraph to deliniate what the buffs can or cannot do..

This in line with DD's theorim of scenario players being like rats. They'll crawl through any little hole to get the cheese. If they can't find a hole they'll gnaw one. And failing that, the rats will just crap all over everything.

-W

Brooke · « **Reply #1577 on:** July 25, 2004, 05:53:38 PM »

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Originally posted by Arlo
I like CAP. I don't do CAP frames often enough. A war from start to finish. Battle results affecting history.

In March, 1996, Try Harder started Saga of the 5th Air Force. It was to be a three-part scenario on the topic of a Japanese push through New Guinea toward Australia, with each part covering a span of time. Results of earlier parts affected later parts, and some new models of aircraft (or more of a previously indroduced new model) would show up each time. It was an awesome scenario.

-- Brooke

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #1578 on:** July 25, 2004, 06:11:20 PM »

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Originally posted by AW=B17=

This in line with DD's theorim of scenario players being like rats. They'll crawl through any little hole to get the cheese. If they can't find a hole they'll gnaw one. And failing that, the rats will just crap all over everything.

Well, that's one way.

The other way is to lay it out real clear that if either CO is planning something that makes them even wonder if it'll violate the spirit of the event, they damn well better ask the CM first.

This way, if they're planning to sneak 73 B17's through a storm sewer the CM can say "no", "well, only 12 B17's can fit in a Yugoslavian storm sewer,' or "fine, but I need to advise the other side of a breakthrough in subterranean flight technology so they stand some chance."

In other words, the CO's need to respect the CM's role of keeping the event balanced. Telling the CM you want to do something sneaky doesn't mean he'll tell you that you can't.

That's my prefered way of doing things. If a CO decides to think they're Above the Law, then they won't be surprised when the hatchet starts swinging crotch-ward.

-DoK

DrDea · « **Reply #1579 on:** July 25, 2004, 06:15:18 PM »

Lets bash Voss some more shall we? I'll get it rolling.
Voss.......Like OJ......your a scumbag

AW=B17= · « **Reply #1580 on:** July 25, 2004, 06:33:55 PM »

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Originally posted by DrDea
Lets bash Voss some more shall we? I'll get it rolling.
Voss.......Like OJ......your a scumbag

I dunno, talking with DoK about scenario play is something I've wanted to do for I dunno..... about 8 years now.

I've chatted with RM, DD, and Tex a bit... but it's nice to talk to the source (of course).

It might actually get me flying again...... and anything that would encourage Dok to think about doing an event would be benificial for the greater community.

But we've pretty much beat that horse anyway....

So..... OK Voss Sucks!!!

Happy now?

-W

DrDea · « **Reply #1581 on:** July 25, 2004, 06:44:44 PM »

Actually Im enjoying the hell out of all this historical AW chat.I got in when it was free on AOHELL in early 97 late 96.Nice to see the guys who made it alot of what it was talking about it.Carry on.Sorry for my hijack.

DrDea

AW=B17= · « **Reply #1582 on:** July 25, 2004, 07:18:51 PM »

Guys like DoK made it what it was....

Guys like me got active "late game" after the trails were blazed and the SOP's already set.

But I'll leave you with a funny related story:

Gypsy Baron has, over the years, taken a strong interest in organized Contra Dancing and dancing in general. (so much so that we've called him "twinkle toes" over on Bigweek)

Anyway, I was planning a trip that would take take me to the left coast and Texas. At the same time, =GB= had some friends in N.H. he wanted to hook up with - dance related. So I loaned him my house for a couple weeks, I'd rather have it house-sat" than left alone.

So... while I'm in Texas (Corpus) we make plans to have dinner at this really cool top floor restaurant in Corpus with Culero, his wife Becca, and Thirdup. (buff GL's all mind ewe)

When we all arrived at the restaurant we had reservations at, we find that it was closed because of a fairly big fire during the earlier part of the day.

The cause..... roasting lamb on the balcony had set the curtains on fire.

Mbaaaaa

-W

DrDea · « **Reply #1583 on:** July 25, 2004, 07:24:26 PM »

How fitting:lol

culero · « **Reply #1584 on:** July 25, 2004, 08:27:33 PM »

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Originally posted by Quarters
That so isn't the case and you know it, Culero. Now reel that hook in and go try casting in different waters.

ROTFLMAO

culero (cod-damn finicky fish anyway)

culero · « **Reply #1585 on:** July 25, 2004, 08:54:52 PM »

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Originally posted by AW=B17=
snip
Culero can correct me if I'm mistaken, (and we know he will because he lives to correct me on details) but the *beginning* of the whining in Ploesti was when the buffs (led by GB or he?) went downtown via an "alternate route" so to speak.

Of course yer wrong, and it ain't about details. It's more illustration you were and still are out of touch with the rules of the event you were supposed to be CM of (and awake while doing so

)

That was my mission plan, and it "fit" the scenario design both letter and spirit. You wanted an on-the-deck refinery raid. We upped the field designated as "Africa", and flew direct to Ploesti. On the deck. No funny routes at all. We just decided to forego trying for max egg points, hit the minimum (one reefer) and try for the RTB safe points instead. You can't say that wasn't in the design, or you wouldn't have included those points.

Hanky was pissed because we didn't try to bull through that Maginot Line defense he'd set up in the center of the area around that tempting mass of close-together targets. Just because the one target we hit wasn't very close to the others was no reason to not defend it. He ignored his scouts because he believed we were making a feint. His tough luck.

The funny thing was that when, in the second frame, we decided "OK, he says we're sneaky, we'll SHOW him sneaky" and went for a secondary target it was his same tactical error (ignoring scouts) that sunk his ass.

Oh, and the event CM never "getting it", that's pretty damned funny, too

culero

culero · « **Reply #1586 on:** July 25, 2004, 09:04:35 PM »

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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, that's one way.

The other way is to lay it out real clear that if either CO is planning something that makes them even wonder if it'll violate the spirit of the event, they damn well better ask the CM first.

This way, if they're planning to sneak 73 B17's through a storm sewer the CM can say "no", "well, only 12 B17's can fit in a Yugoslavian storm sewer,' or "fine, but I need to advise the other side of a breakthrough in subterranean flight technology so they stand some chance."

In other words, the CO's need to respect the CM's role of keeping the event balanced. Telling the CM you want to do something sneaky doesn't mean he'll tell you that you can't.

That's my prefered way of doing things. If a CO decides to think they're Above the Law, then they won't be surprised when the hatchet starts swinging crotch-ward.

-DoK

Pretty valid concern, and reaction.

Best way I've seen of avoiding this is for the event producer to choose the COs by private invitation as soon as a concept is ready. Then, include them as an active part of the design team. That way, they're invested in the event as more than competitors. Its why you'll see COs credited as part of the team on the Team Pearl page, for instance.

I can imagine how frustrating it'd be to have a command element "game" a design you've put a lot of effort into. That's why I can't imagine not having the command elements in the tent

culero

AW=B17= · « **Reply #1587 on:** July 25, 2004, 09:51:49 PM »

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Originally posted by culero
Of course yer wrong, and it ain't about details. It's more illustration you were and still are out of touch with the rules of the event you were supposed to be CM of (and awake while doing so )

Listen here mister Wall-O-Text...... all I'm doing is getting Frame 1 and Frame 2 TARGETS mixed up and intertwined in my memory, a lot of brain cells have died since then you know!

We agree totally that missed scout reports is what sunk him.

I have it straight *now* that in Frame one you hit a target that was a bit tangental to the main refinery complex, did it straight up, and he whined that you didn't really go downtown but pussied out. Yes, that refinery was in the target area and I never said otherwise. BUT I can *understand* where *he'd* whine that a little corner hit like that was contrary to the spirit of "Operation Tidal Wave" and the gauntlet run.

It was Frame *two* that you hit an alternate, using ultra sneaky pathing , and he whined louder. It was frame two that I got to observe both radio rooms. I just had the target crossed up with frame one. But I'll never forget that scout screaming into the darkness, and praying that someone would listen.

My memory had them interleaved and backwards. But in both cases his "problem" was that he had a **very** "puritan" view of the intent and the rules, and *he* thought you guys were "gaming the game". I tend to agree with you that in light of the fact that he was in the planning newsgroup too, he had no reason to be so altruistic all of a sudden. We had talked about "alternatives" to running straight into the hornets nest and scouts being important.

I never *ever* made an ethical judgement call on if I thought you guys were gaming it on offence - only because I'd run way too many buff missions with the exact same mindset that you guys used. And so had Hanky for that matter. I don't know why he'd think you (of all buff planners) were gonna turn into a "shining white night" just because we all had some deep reverence for the real Operation Tidal Wave.

None of this changes the fact that by the end of frame *two* there was a serious problem with the point-spread, and the only hope was that his turn at offence would be spectacular.

Of course after frame two, your real goal was to drive him totally crazy - it worked.

Note to DoK - Opposing CO was Greg "Hacka" Bergman.... by the end of the scenario he did so much crying that he's now forever refered to as Hanky. Or as Culero called him, Mr. Hanky lol

Real good guy, he's on speaking terms with Culero again too.

-W

AW=B17= · « **Reply #1588 on:** July 25, 2004, 09:54:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by culero
Pretty valid concern, and reaction.

Best way I've seen of avoiding this is for the event producer to choose the COs by private invitation as soon as a concept is ready. Then, include them as an active part of the design team. That way, they're invested in the event as more than competitors. Its why you'll see COs credited as part of the team on the Team Pearl page, for instance.

I can imagine how frustrating it'd be to have a command element "game" a design you've put a lot of effort into. That's why I can't imagine not having the command elements in the tent

culero

Ya...... that idea worked real well for Ploesti - You and Hanky were obviously on the same exact page.

culero · « **Reply #1589 on:** July 25, 2004, 11:18:30 PM »

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Originally posted by AW=B17=
Ya...... that idea worked real well for Ploesti - You and Hanky were obviously on the same exact page.

HAHAHA

Truth is, tho, I wasn't involved in anything except setting up the terrain for ya'll on that one. I wanted to be just another rabid player in that event...and had some fun doing exactly that

culero