First pass speed of sound

[Wilbus]

I have seen similar "thickheaded" reasoning when it comes to the Luftwaffe. You know, the old "we were beat my numbers argument". Now, we know that the Luftwaffe was out-numbered towards the end of the war. However, Allied technology produced some of the finest aircraft of the war, piloted by better trained men. Yeah, German technology was fantastic. Yet, in many areas they were behind the western Allies.     There is much to admire Germany for, but let's not be fanatical about them as it blinds one to reality.

Don't agree with all that but hey, we all have our opinions.

Germany didn't lose becaue they were outnumbered, they lost because their leaders were (thankfully) complete idiots.

I think both US and Germany created some of the finest planes of the war, however, I don't see many areas where US was ahead of Germany technology wise (when it comes to fighter planes), call it desperat atempts to create a war winning machine but the simple fact is that Germany were far ahead all other countries when it came to a great deal of stuff to do with aviation.

I am open minded, you can call me a Luftwaffe Fanatic if you like, it'll only make you look stupid but the thruth is the history is full of scientists" saying "this and that is impossible" and they have, pretty much every time, been proven wrong. First it was impossible to fly like the birds, then it was impossible to brake the sound barrier, then it was impossible to brake the soundbarrier with a land based veichle. Every new "sought out" invention have been called "impossible" by a great number of people and they've been proven wrong again and again.

Is it impossible for a 262 to brake the sound barrier? Pherhaps, we'll never know for sure untill someone takes it up high and tries it, untill proven the F86 is the plane that will be known for first braking it, but like I said before, I keep an open mind, unlike some other people and consider the "impossible" possible.

What I can't stand is people who consider things impossible and laugh at people saying it is possible.

As for prop planes braking the sound barrier (ie P47 pilot) that has been PROVEN impossible suported by both tests and calculations.

[Halo]

Fascinating info, Widewing.  Thanks.  

Welch also was among the first Americans to get Japanese kills during the Pearl Harbor attack, shooting down four, the most by any pilot.

[Charge]

Very nice reading but a few things to consider:

P80 wings length+sweepback? ->longish and straight resulting in pressure buildup at wing tip -> too much drag.

F104 a straight wing? Not really as the leading edge is angled backwards AND the wing is very short preventing the wing tip pressure buildup. Less drag. Thin wing ->Ok for SuperS.

ME262 a somewhat thick wing with sweepback which helps negating the effects of pressure build up at wingtips. Of course the wing is bad for supersonic flight but not nearly as bad as those designs seen in its contemporaries P80 and especially in Meteor. Also the fuselage shape could cause the tail to lose all its contact with the air in transonic area. Could. +the jetpipe ramp was of such shape that I'd imagine it to stall at transonic area.

I personally believe that in certain weather conditions the 262 was capable of slightly exceeding the sound barrier.

Just a few things that I keep relevant to this topic but then again I'm not an expert like widewing.

-C+

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Charge
Very nice reading but a few things to consider:

P80 wings length+sweepback? ->longish and straight resulting in pressure buildup at wing tip -> too much drag.

F104 a straight wing? Not really as the leading edge is angled backwards AND the wing is very short preventing the wing tip pressure buildup. Less drag. Thin wing ->Ok for SuperS.

ME262 a somewhat thick wing with sweepback which helps negating the effects of pressure build up at wingtips. Of course the wing is bad for supersonic flight but not nearly as bad as those designs seen in its contemporaries P80 and especially in Meteor. Also the fuselage shape could cause the tail to lose all its contact with the air in transonic area. Could. +the jetpipe ramp was of such shape that I'd imagine it to stall at transonic area.

I personally believe that in certain weather conditions the 262 was capable of slightly exceeding the sound barrier.

Just a few things that I keep relevant to this topic but then again I'm not an expert like widewing.

-C+

Well, the P-80 had a tapered, 11% chord to thickness ratio laminar flow wing. Being a laminar flow design, the drag rise is delayed as compared to the 262's conventional airfoil. As to sweep, the 262 had less leading edge sweep than the DC-3/C-47. And like the C-47, the sweep was implemented to shift the center of lift aft somewhat. My understanding is that the critical Mach of the P-80 and 262 are virtually the same. Likewise, the P-84 used a laminar flow design, but a slightly thinner wing of 10% ratio. Grumman's XF9F-1 employed a thicker airfoil of around 12-13% (reflected in its slightly lower critical Mach and actual level airspeed).

My regards,

Widewing

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by hogenbor
That having said, we have a flyable 262 around in Texas, as close to the original as we will ever get, but with much more powerful engines.  

That is not correct, the "262" you are refering to is not in Texas, they were started there by the Texas Airplane Factory.  Originally there was supposed to be 5 aircraft built.  During construction, the TAF was accused of building another airplane to bring the number to 6 even though there were only supposed to be 5.  The main backer, F86 demo pilot who was killed a few years ago, pulled the projects from the TAF and a new location was sought to finish the aircraft.  

I worked at one of the locations, and helped on the quote to finish the aircraft, ultimately deciding that there was too much risk and liability as the aircraft departed drastically from the orignal designs, and thus were representing problems that the budget to finish them was not allowing for.  We declined the offer.  Fortunately for the projects, they were sent to WA and one has since flown, followed by a landing gear failure that substatially damaged the aircraft.  Incidentally it has returned tot he air again, I believe on the 4th of June.  Albeit the gear were not retracted.  

THis may sound as though it is a bashing on the project themselves, it is not.  I fully respect the work of the crews finishing the aircraft.  I also think it is wonderful that a replica 262 is going to fly again, but it is not a "real" 262, and differs so much internally that it really needs a new designation such as Me262D or along those lines.

Back to Widewing's assertions that the 262 can not go past the sound barrier.  That is simply scientific fact.  The airframe can not sustain the high speed buffets that it will encounter before ripping up as it attempts to cross the sound barrier.  To say otherwise is refuting proven science, and simply idiotic.

[kevykev56]

A little OT but since we are talking about first to break the speed of sound, Here is a first of a different kind

On 16 August 1960, Kittinger executed his most significant jump from an altitude of 102,800 feet, freefalling to 18,000 feet before opening his parachute and landing. Kittinger was not only the first person to parachute from above 100,000 feet, but, falling at reportedly 714 miles per hour, was also the first to exceed Mach 1 without an aircraft.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/03bios/kittin03.htm



Brave/crazy man!!


RHIN0

[peregrin]

Originally posted by kevykev56
A little OT but since we are talking about first to break the speed of sound, Here is a first of a different kind

    quote: On 16 August 1960, Kittinger executed his most significant jump from an altitude of 102,800 feet, freefalling to 18,000 feet before opening his parachute and landing. Kittinger was not only the first person to parachute from above 100,000 feet, but, falling at reportedly 714 miles per hour, was also the first to exceed Mach 1 without an aircraft.

Brave/crazy man!!


RHIN0

Definitely not level flight.

[kevykev56]

Definitely not level flight.

LOL.....not even close to level

[Nashwan]

As to the Spitfire being faster in a dive than the 262, without its prop the answer is yes. A late-model Spitfire was dived from 44,000 feet in 1946. As it reached 25,000 feet the drag rise on the prop resulted in the prop hub failing. All five blades flew off into space. Continuing down, out of control, the Spitfire attained Mach 0.90 before increasing density and temperature slowed its physical and relative velocity to that where the pilot was able to regain control. After a deadstick landing, the aircraft was examined and promptly written off as being too damaged to repair.

I don't know of any documented Spitfire tests going past 0.89, but that was done with the prop still attached in a Spit PR XI in 1944.

[Charon]

On 16 August 1960, Kittinger executed his most significant jump from an altitude of 102,800 feet, freefalling to 18,000 feet before opening his parachute and landing. Kittinger was not only the first person to parachute from above 100,000 feet, but, falling at reportedly 714 miles per hour, was also the first to exceed Mach 1 without an aircraft.

That guy was ****ing nuts. There's a photograph from the gondola just hfter he jumped showing him falling towards an earth that is far, far down below. Never in a million years, unless you put a gun toi my head (and an automatic ejector on the seat ).

Charon

[Wilbus]

Back to Widewing's assertions that the 262 can not go past the sound barrier. That is simply scientific fact. The airframe can not sustain the high speed buffets that it will encounter before ripping up as it attempts to cross the sound barrier. To say otherwise is refuting proven science, and simply idiotic.

Well no 262 that was said to pass the barrier survived, except the one in my link, however, it was a total write off once he finally landed it. Not saying he passed, just saying it was possible to survive the buffeting at those high speeds if the buffeting didn't last for too long as in the story told in the link.