Author Topic: P-40B, Flying Tigers  (Read 504 times)

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1452
P-40B, Flying Tigers
« on: July 16, 2004, 07:14:16 PM »
P-40B

FIRST COMBAT

The Third A.V.G. squadron moved to Rangoon on December 12, 1941, to join the R.A.F. in the defense of Rangoon.  The First and Second squadrons flew from Toungoo to Kunming on the afternoon of the 18th.  The first combat for the A.V.G. occurred over southern Yunnan Province on December 20, 1941.  In their first combat, a combination of the First and Second Squadrons, shot down nine out of ten Japanese bombers with a loss of one A.V.G. aircraft.  The second engagement brought the Third Squadron onto action over Rangoon on December 23, with the R.A.F. flying beside the Tigers.  The total haul of Japs was six bombers and four fighters.  The R.A.F. lost five planes and pilots and the A.V.G. lost four planes and two pilots.  

Then, on Christmas Day, two waves totaling 80 Jap bombers and 48 fighters hit Rangoon.  The A.V.G. knocked down 23 of them, the biggest victory of the war, with six more Jap planes believed shot down over the Gulf of Martaban.  The A.V.G. suffered not the loss of a single plane.

The 28th brought another heavy enemy attack - 20 bombers and 25 fighters.  The A.V.G. got 10 of them with no losses.

The next day, the 29th, the Japs threw 40 bombers and 20 fighters against the Tigers who scored 18 kills with a loss of only a single aircraft.

Now it was the day of New Year's Eve but it dawned with no let up in the Jap assault.  80 planes crowding the skies over Rangoon.  The Tigers shot down 15 without the loss of a single aircraft.

In 11 days of fighting, the A.V.G. had officially knocked 75 enemy aircraft out of the skies with an undetermined number of probable kills such as the losses the Japs suffered over the Gulf of Martaban.  The A.V.G. losses were two pilots and six aircraft.

Early in January, the Rangoon defense was reinforced by eight planes from the First Squadron and the A.V.G. began their first strafing of the war.  Hitting the Jap air base in Thailand, they wiped out a dozen planes on the ground.  On January 13, the remainder of the First Squadron joined the other A.V.G. forces at Rangoon and there followed a series of raids on Jap air bases.  Ten days later, January 23, after a series of engagements over Kunming and Rangoon, the Japes attacked Rangoon in force again, 72 planes appearing there and the A.V.G. got 21 of them with the loss of only one American pilot.  Air battles continued over Rangoon until it finally fell to enemy ground forces at the end of February.  During this time, in one strafing raid in Thailand, the A.V.G. knocked out upwards of 60 enemy aircraft on the ground, the biggest ground victory of the war.  But advancing Jap ground forces slowly drove the A.V.G. to bases at Magwe in Burma and eventually into the interior of China.

There, the Tigers continued to carry out their final missions, supporting the Chinese ground forces on both eastern and western fronts as well as defending Chinese cities against attacks by the Japanese Air Force.

Concerning the A.V.G. combat statistics, Chennault says:

"Although, the A.V.G. was blooded over China, it was the air battles over Rangoon that stamped the hallmark on its fame as the Flying Tigers.  The cold statistics for the 10 weeks the A.V.G. served at Rangoon show its strength varied between twenty and five serviceable P-40's.  This tiny force met a total of a thousand-odd Japanese aircraft over Southern Burma and Thailand.  In 31 encounters they destroyed 217 enemy planes and probably destroyed 43.  Our losses in combat were four pilots killed in the air, one killed while strafing and one taken prisoner.  Sixteen P-40's were destroyed.  During the same period, the R.A.F., fighting side by side with the A.V.G., destroyed 74 enemy planes, probably destroyed 33, with a loss of 22 Buffaloes and Hurricanes.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 07:19:59 PM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2004, 02:34:13 AM »
I'd say the only correction would be the AVG didn't fly P-40B's


And nor did they fly P-40C's.


They had a unique hybrid version which had different features from both models as well as hand-made engines and some other unique features (like several different models of wing guns).  No two performed completely the same, but by the accounts of people like the late Eric Shilling (did I spell it right?) the AVG Tomahawk certainly performed a bit better than the "stock" one modeled in AH.





J_A_B

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2004, 05:43:14 AM »
Where did you get your info JAB?

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2004, 06:32:42 AM »
Honestly I don't remember where I first found out the bit about the engines.   I had sort of pieced together the plane subtype on my own--they were supposed to be P-40C's but didn't have the bomb rack (which it turns out isn't a bomb rack at all though I thought it was--see below).  The different guns used is explained in detailed histories of the AVG because they went to some trouble to obtain them.  Allright enough discussing my poor memory!

Anyway.....

Checking my favorites, turns out that C.C. Jordan's website has a comprehensive article on the subject, so I'll post it for you.  C.C. Jordan is a fellow AH flier among other things, if you weren't aware  :)

Upon reading it I learned some details which I didn't previously know.  Apparently the differences between models are pretty pronounced and the AVG version performed a lot more than "a bit better"!



-----------------------



When the Chinese asked the U.S. for assistance, they asked for fighters and bombers. For political reasons, FDR would agree only to fighters, and U.S. law at the time allowed only for cash & carry sales to beligerents. So, a China based corporation was formed to purchase aircraft. However, virtually all U.S. production capacity was allocated for our own build up and existing contracts with friendly nations such as Britain. In order to free up some aircraft for China, the U.S. asked the Brits to exchange later model P-40Ds (Kittyhawk I) for currently ordered Tomahawk IIB fighters. The Brits agreed and 100 of the contracted Tomahawks were transferred to a Chinese contract.

Curtiss saw an opportunity to utilize stock of enternally sealed fuel tanks that had been used on the Tomahawk IIA. The Brits did not like the external sealing and specified internal sealing for future builds. This left Curtiss with over 100 sets of obsolete fuel tanks. This was their chance to use these, and they had already been written off. This would enhance profits. In addition, the Chinese contract, unlike that with the Brits, did not specify plumbing or shackles for an external fuel tank, so this was deleted from the Chinese aircraft. Again, this simplified production and increased the profit margin. The net result is that even though the 100 fighters carried Tomahawk IIB serial numbers, these fighters were very much like the IIA, except that they had IIB armor.

Allison was running at 100% capacity. Simply stated, there weren't any extra engines to be had. Every block and cylinder head was already allocated to an existing contract. But, wait a minute, there were plenty of rejected blocks, cylinder heads and such. Allison realized that most of the rejected engine components were usable if the various parts were hand matched and fitted. They set up a production line and began assembling these engines. Individual parts were reworked and carefully matched. The results of this procedure were engines built to very tight tolerances. Essentially, these were 'blueprinted' engines. Dyno tests revealed that they produced as much as 220 hp more than the production line V-1710-33s going into the RAF Tomahawks and USAAF P-40C fighters. Allison had produced some very powerful and very expensive engines. Fortunately they were allowed to bury the extra cost into contracts for U.S. aircraft. These engines certainly account for the performance of the AVG's Tomahawks. In general terms, the AVG fighters could pull up to 370 mph in level flight, which is reasonable considering that these aircraft had 20% more power and less weight than the British Tomahawk IIB. Another fact not picked up on as significant by historians was the high rate of reduction gear failures in the AVG aircraft. This is easily explained when you realize that the older style reduction gear was rated for no more than 1,100 hp. With as much as 1,250 hp on tap, the reduction gearbox was over-stressed and frequently stripped gears. Later models, with 1,200 hp engines were fitted with a much stronger spur gear design that could handle up to 1,600 hp. This is the major reason that the nose is shorter from the P-40D onward.

Now that the Chinese had airframes and engines, they needed to purchase guns for the fighters. Once again, all production was allocated for existing contracts. Nonetheless, CAMCO (the China based front company) managed to purchase enough .50 caliber Brownings for all 100 Tomahawks. Finding .30 caliber guns (installed in the wings) was more of a problem. Eventually, the 100 Tomahawks were fitted with a mixture of guns. Some were fitted with 7.92mm caliber wing guns, others carried British specification guns in .303 caliber. Still others were armed with .30 U.S. caliber Brownings. This complicated logistics somewhat, but all three calibers were readily available, even 7.92mm, which was the standard for the Chinese Army.

Within the context of this knowledge, we can understand that the AVG fighters were a unique model. For that reason, Curtiss gave them their own special designation. Originally contracted for as the Curtiss H81-2A, these fighters were designated as the H81-3A. Many historians and authors have confused the various Curtiss designations, or figured that these were Tomahawk IIB aircraft based upon the serial numbers. We now know that these were a special model. It should also be noted that the serial numbers were assigned months before actual manufacturing began.

So, a unique group of fighter pilots flew an equally unique version of the Curtiss H81/Tomahawk/P-40.

The Editor

C.C. Jodan's website can be reached here:

Planes and Pilots of WW2


Another site I recommend is Joe Baugher's.  I wouldn't use this site for performance data, but it is great to learn about the various sub-types.

American Military Aircraft


J_A_B
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 06:43:04 AM by J_A_B »

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1452
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2004, 11:08:40 AM »
I dont recall details but it is my understanding that the AVG was able the Tomahawk IIB built for Engalnd. USA offered England advanced P-40s if they would not take order of the P-40s already build for them. This was so they could be sent to China to the Flying Tigers.

Anyway, Flying Tigers had Tomahawk IIBs which were ordered for the Royal Air Force.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 11:16:43 AM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2004, 11:29:32 AM »
Read the above post at the very least.


They were IIB's (P-40C) only on paper.


J_A_B

Offline ergRTC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1632
      • http://bio2.elmira.edu/DMS/index.pl?table=content&faculty=1&page=1
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 09:01:01 PM »
I have seen several sources that all mention the exact same things that jab has posted.  I think the trani failures are a real good clue at what was happening under the hood.  Also, we all must remember they were fighting oscars and those stupid fixed gear craft with superior leadership.  Hard not to kick bellybutton in those circumstances.

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2004, 09:30:01 PM »
Hard not to kick bellybutton in those circumstances.

Japs had been fighting for a while there and had greater numbers. Ki-43 was more agile than the A6M also. Just had crappy guns.

Offline ergRTC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1632
      • http://bio2.elmira.edu/DMS/index.pl?table=content&faculty=1&page=1
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2004, 11:06:10 PM »
you are right slash, but the bnz tactics and the lack of dive capability for the japanese assured the avg of victory.  Even if the stupid oscar or whatever those fixed gear planes were, had alt, they would rip there wings off at 350 mph (also referenced in those sources, I think that is actually from one of the pilots), so there was no way an aware pilot could get smoked unless the plane started behaving badly or he messed up.  

Not to diss the tigers or the plane they flew.  That plane has to be my favorite, and I would love to try a scenario with it against its real counterparts.  Against the zero it is just not the same.  Against the a6m2 altitude above 15k is a disadvantage, if you do meet a zeke up there you have to split s and run or ho and run.  Just not the same tactics.  p40bs owned the sky in china.  Must have been like the f4u in 43 or the p38 a little later.

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
Flying Tigers, P-40B
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 07:53:08 AM »
Cross your fingers for the Oscar:aok