Author Topic: Flaps ... (Read 1566 times)

GScholz · « **Reply #30 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:33:00 PM »

I don't think it had aileron trim. Only fixed tabs.

Krusty · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:38:28 PM »

It must have had something.... There were tabs on the ailerons, I don't think they moved, but some trim systems just moved the entire aileron up or down.

Anyways, almost all planes of the era had trim, I'd assume the fighters needed it more than bombers (for the accurate shot).

Hrm....

GScholz · « **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:44:55 PM »

No not really. The 109G had an autopilot though, so the trimming was less important for cruising and climbing. Only in combat was trimming an issue, and then the elevator trim is the most important.

Crumpp · « **Reply #33 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:46:19 PM »

It had fixed trim tabs on the rudder and alierons.

Crumpp

Wotan · « **Reply #34 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:11:54 PM »

oops yup fixed aileron tabs and ruddder tab. These were set on the ground for cruise.

Quote

Only in combat was trimming an issue,

You must be referring to combat in these games. In rl combat didn't involve a lot of trim.

The reason folks focus on it in these games is we don’t feel stick forces and as such instead of relieving stick pressure folks think trim helps them turn or maneuver better.

Even aircraft with adjustable aileron trim never really "used it" to help them fight.

In AH I would use CT all the time if it weren't for a few issues with some planes. It would be about as real as it was in rl.

GScholz · « **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:13:29 PM »

Elevator trim was useful in combat. Some 109 pilots used it to great effect.

Wotan · « **Reply #36 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:19:46 PM »

Quote an anecdote. All the interviews of pilots I have read where the specific question of trimming is asked they all have replied that their ac was set before the engagement and not touched until after.

The only exception has been dive recovery.

All trim does is relieve stick forces, its not a primary control surface even with the whole horizontal tale plain moving.

GScholz · « **Reply #37 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:32:11 PM »

Yes they set the trim before entering combat ... but that DOES require adjustable trim. The more experienced 109 pilots used to trim the nose up so that the 109's heavy stick force was less of an issue in high-speed manoeuvring. Of course this required constant forward pressure on the stick to stay in level flight.

JB73 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:38:38 PM »

this and the Karnak post are the most i have posted i this forum ever in my 2.5 years here LMAO.

i'll bet maybe 10 posts total in last 2 years... now this LOL

just wanted to say that

J_A_B · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:40:13 PM »

This is an excerpt from the first chapter of Bud Anderson's book, "To Fly and Fight" It describes using trim in a P-51B.

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"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

--------------

I still don't see why they even bother to model trim in AH since.....the stick forces in my own joystick never change (this makes it harder to trim your plane in AH than in a real A/C since you have nothing to feel it with). Considering that the entire POINT of having trim in an airplane is to make stick forces more comfortable....having it doesn't seem to make sense to me. It just adds workload for no benefit. But they do have it, so I guess CT is a decent if imperfect compromise.

J_A_B

Wotan · « **Reply #40 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:39:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Yes they set the trim before entering combat ... but that DOES require adjustable trim. The more experienced 109 pilots used to trim the nose up so that the 109's heavy stick force was less of an issue in high-speed manoeuvring. Of course this required constant forward pressure on the stick to stay in level flight.

Well I didn't no one ever trimmed, what I said was based on the pilot anecdotes I have read (mostly lw) trimming was done before hand. This was in response to

Quote

Elevator trim was useful in combat.

I took that to mean while in the fight.

But JAB did quote Bud saying he trimmed.

JAB,

That is the reasoning behind combat trim. However there are quirks in some planes. I guess HT couldnt force himself to get rid of trim all together.

In FB/AEP trim has been so poorly modelled that it has went through several fixes and now there is a delay response. Even so trim actually allows you to roll better, turn better etc...

Folks even write scripts for their js so it matches their pitch / roll axis then goes to nuetral as you center the stick.

They even go as far as to put flaps on an axis so that planes like the spitfire end up with multi posistion flaps.

But anway.....

I think trimming is over rated as it relates to these games.

Crumpp · « **Reply #41 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:53:19 PM »

Quote

Lateral Trim
There is no procounced change of lateral trim with speed of throttle setting provided that care is taken to fly with no sideslip.

Directional Trim
Absence of rudder trimmer is a bad feature, although at low speeds the practical consequences are not so alarming as the curves might suggest, since the rudder is fairly light on the climb. At high speeds, however, the pilot is seriously inconvenienced, as above 300 mph about 2 1/2 degrees of port (left) rudder are needed for flight with no sideslip and a very heavy foot load is needed to keep this on. In consequence the pilot's left foot becomes tired, and this affects his ability to put on left rudder in order to assist a turn to port (left). Hence at high speeds the Bf.109E turns far more readily to the right than to the left.

Longitudinal Trim
Five three-quarter turns of a 11.7 in diameter wheel on the pilot's left are needed to move the adjustable tailplane through its full 12-degrees range. The wheel rotation is in the natural sense. Tailplane and elevator angles to trim were measured at various speeds in various condition; the elevator angles were corrected to constant tail setting. The airplane is statically stable both stick fixed and stick free.

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/flybf109.html

Crumpp

Widewing · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2004, 10:08:57 AM »

Regarding flaps, I have seen some people claim that the F6F has incorrectly modeled flaps.

Some have claimed that the F6F has two-position flaps, up and down. This, however, is incorrect.

The F6F's flap position indicator has 5 positions incremented from full up to full down. It appears that the increments are full up, 10 degrees, 20 degrees, 40 degrees and full down (48 degrees).

For the F6F, flaps would be set at 20 degrees for short-field takeoff and 48 degrees for carrier landing.

My regards,

Widewing

J_A_B · « **Reply #43 on:** July 24, 2004, 06:47:45 PM »

Where does that information come from Widewing? That is in conflict with--among other things--the F6F's manual.

J_A_B

Crumpp · « **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2004, 07:01:51 PM »

Same with the 190. Not only are the flap "auto-retract" speed the same for both the landing and takeoff flaps but the incremental settings are wrong. In AH the 190 has about five flap settings instead of three.

Crumpp