Who do you support in the IDF-Arabs conflict?

[Estel]

Originally posted by Flyboy
well i will choose the second pic. but i am BIASed

What is "BIASed"?

[Shuckins]

Israeli occupation of the West Bank?  Illegal villages.  You've got a point there.  But would you or I react with violence to such things?  I don't think so.  "Lebensraum"...that's a bit of a stretch.  Many of these communities result from the government's open immigration policies.  The Jewish immigrants that have arrived almost daily since 1948 are usually the less well-heeled, refugee types coming from countries where they have faced persecution or privation.  Memories of the Holocaust are still quite strong, and so they find it hard to turn these immigrants away.  This policy has caused Israel numerous problems over the years.

Try to remember that there ARE Palestinians who live and work within the Israeli zone of occupation.  They are considered to be citizens of the state of Israel.  That alone negates the accusations of "apartheid."  Any separation that exists is almost solely the result of the violence and the security measures that have resulted from it.

It is unbecoming of westerners to who DO NOT have to live like this to point an accusatory finger at the Israelis who have to on a daily basis.

[Staga]

So you don't like word "Lebensraum"?
Well who would but that's just what it is:

    Definition:       [n]  space sought for occupation by a nation whose population is expanding
 
    Synonyms:       living space
 
    See Also:       elbow room, room, way

Schuckins are those Palestinians who are living in occupied territories and are considered "citizens of Israel" and working in Israel able to vote ?

No ?

Are you surprised?

"That alone negates the accusations of "apartheid"

Errrrr...  do you really think so?? Second class citizens, basically pariahs without right to vote... but not Apartheid?
 What word would you use then ? petty apartheid or segregation ?

[Nashwan]

But would you or I react with violence to such things? I don't think so.

You wouldn't react with violence if you were invaded by a foreign power, subjected to military occupation for decades whilst they confiscated land to move their population onto?

You wouldn't resort to violence if you were taxed by the occupying power without hiaving any say where those taxes went, and indeed large parts of that tax revenue were earmarked solely for the benefit of the occupying power's citizens?

Many of these communities result from the government's open immigration policies.

No, they result from religious fanatics belief that the land belongs to them as Jews, and anyone who is not Jewish has no entitlement to the land, or what's on it.

It's the same belief that has led rabbis to authorise settlers to take Palestinian's crops at harvest time, because whatever grows in Israel belongs to Jews, not Arabs, even if the Arab planted the crops on land he owns and tended them throughout the year.

Try to remember that there ARE Palestinians who live and work within the Israeli zone of occupation. They are considered to be citizens of the state of Israel.

The vast majority of Palestinians who live and work in Israeli occupied territory are not considered citizens of Israel. They have no citizenship, and are subject to Israeli military law, not Israeli civilian law.

That alone negates the accusations of "apartheid."

If you are born to a Arab family in Hebron, you are not a citizen. If you are born to a Jewish family in Hebron, you are an Israeli citizen. That's apartheid.

Any separation that exists is almost solely the result of the violence and the security measures that have resulted from it.

The seperation exists because Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. Zionism's aim was the creation of a Jewish state. However, the land that Israel has expanded onto has an Arab majority. Overall, counting Israel proper and the land it occupies, there is no clear Jewish majority, and within a few years there will be an Arab majority.

That's why there's seperation and apartheid. Israel cannot remain a Jewish state and occupy the West Bank and give citizenship to the Palestinians. The religious zealots won't let them stop occupying the West Bank, so the Palestinians must continue to live under occupation.

[Shuckins]

Don't paint with a broad brush fellas.  Not all Israelis are for occupation of other lands based on Biblical doctrine.  The Israeli government has taken steps to force settlers in some of these illegal communities to move.

There are, indeed two sides to every story.  Palestinian, or "Arab Israelis" have had their rights restricted over the years.  This has often been justified by the Israeli government as necessary for national security.

This does not fully justify the treatment of Arab-Israelis over the years, but it goes far to explain that treatment.  Arab-Israelis have second-class citizenship largely because the more violent factions of the Muslims of that region have routinely infiltrated that population to carry out violent attacks on the Jews.

There have been two intifadas.  The Arab-Israelis as a group have not taken part in them.  Whatever their greivances may be toward the Israeli government they have preferred to work through peaceable means to achieve change.  Israel is divided into 120 voting districts.  Any Israeli citizen, whether Jewish or Arab may take part in those elections as long as they do not belong to a group that espouses the destruction of Israel or denies its right to exist.  There a number of Arab and Islamic political parties in Israel which have elected members to the Knesset.  There is currently a move to transform Israel from a "Jewish democracy" to a "true democracy."  This has been discussed by the Knesset on several occasions, but the wave of violence that has swept the country since Arafat and his "Palestinians" arrived has largely derailed the process.

The Israelis have their "religious fanatics" to be sure.  Rabid Zionists are definitely part of the problem.  Their racist fanaticism is equaled, if not surpassed by Hamaas and Hezbollah, who are stirring up much of the violence and suicide bombings in Israel.  But the vast majority of their members are NOT Arab-Israelis.  They are made up of Syrians and fanatical "Palestinian" Arabs.  Much of the violence comes from radical groups operating out of the Gaza strip, from among groups of "Palestinians" that the Israelis have never granted citizenship to because of their radical beliefs and violence.

By the way, by definition an occupied territory is not considered to be a part of the occupying country, nor are its people considered to be citizens of that country.  The Philippines were at one time an occupied territory of the United States, but its people were not considered to be citizens, nor were they allowed to vote in our elections.  Would you have the Israelis grant voting citizenship to hostile and often murderous ethnic groups that have vowed publicly to destroy them?

The point of the matter is that large numbers of Arabs living in Israel have chosen not to use violence but are working through the political system by peaceable means to bring about meaningful change.

Your sympathies appear to lie with the radicals...or at least you attempt to justify their radicalism and violence.

[Staga]

Your sympathies appear to lie with the radicals...or at least you attempt to justify their radicalism and violence.

Huh?

I thought it was you who supported country which is practising apartheid and racial discrimination and occupying areas which belong to other countries.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Staga
occupying areas which belong to other countries.

And which countries would that be?

[Coolridr]

F*uck both sides of this conflict. Both sides are dead WRONG. And the fact that we took a side has caused us more trouble than that little strip of useless sandy beach is worth. And for what? I don't see how I benefit from it. But I and every supporter of Israel has become a target of the other side. F*uck em both.

[Hortlund]

Way to equate the terrorists with the Israelis you miserable f*ck

[Coolridr]

Lets see , not that I like them. But the UN stole the land from those people to "create" Israel. And then everybody expects the Palestinians to just get on with their lives and deal with it. I'm not taking either side and I didn't equate the Israelis with terrorists. All I said was
US support to Israel = US target by terrorists.

not a hard equation

Cut em lose I say. They can defend themselves

[Shuckins]

Sorry Staga, that may have been a bit strong.

However, before one takes Palestinian and Muslim complaints about Israeli policies too seriously, one needs to consider the history of the region from which these complaints originate.

Nearly every country in the Middle East has ethnic groups that are treated like second-class citizens.  They are accorded this status based on a number of factors including, but not confined to, race and religion.  Kurds and Shi-ites in Iraq, Christians in Egypt, Jews in Yemen, Christian tribes in Sudan (While African, it has extensive ties to the Middle East), just to name a few.  

While Muslim critics of Israeli policies can cite numerous examples of Israeli "atrocities", they are taught about them in school after all, when it comes to their own history in this regard they have developed selective amnesia.  This is quite similar to the recollections that the Japanese have about World War II:  they remember quite well Hiroshima and Nagasaki but can tell you almost nothing about the atrocities committed in China, nor are they willing to admit that these events happened the way they are portrayed in western historical accounts.

How many of you are familiar with the Turkish massacre of Armenian civilians during World War I?  More than one and a half million Armenians died.  Despite extensive knowledge about these atrocities in the west and condemnation the U.S. and many European nations the Turks refuse to admit that they ever happened...and most of the Arab world follows suit.

[Shuckins]

Let's understand something here.  There never has been a Palestinian nation.  Period.  There has never been a clearly defined Palestinian ethnic group;  just a hodge-podge collection of immigrants and refugees who arrived in the area after World War I and began to settle among the indigent Arabs and Jews who had occupied Palestine for hundreds of years.

The land from which Israel was created was seized from the Turkish Empire after World War I as part of a "mandate."  The British were to stabilize the area and formulate a plan for creating an independent nation, or nations from it.  

Later, after World War II, the U.N gave it's support to a plan to create TWO nations out of this mandate;  one Jewish, the other Palestinian.  The U.N. did not seize the land from anyone.  Moderate Arab leaders who would have supported this plan were promptly shouted down, intimidated, and in some cases murdered.  Much of the land that the Jews occupied was bought by them from the Arabs who owned it.  These Arabs were desperately poor and welcomed the money the sales brought.  The first seizures of land took place during the war of 1948, when many "Palestinians" fled the scenes of fighting under the urging of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who promised that they could return after all the Jews were killed (Kill them...Kill them all!) and seize all of their land.

The Israelis may not be completely blameless in this struggle...but neither are they the bogey-men that Palestinian propaganda makes them out to be.

[Staga]

Disputes - international:
   Definition Field Listing
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Golan Heights is Israeli-occupied (Lebanon claims the Shab'a Farms area of Golan Heights)

btw that's from CIA world factbook so my guess is they did enough research to get that conclusion...

[Staga]

btw in that area no'one is innocent; not Palestinians but neither are Israelis.

Thing is Israel is USA's ally and only USA can make them sit on a same table with Palestinians and start negotiations how to cool down that part of this *****g planet; they both share the guilt of some recent happenings around this planet.

Problem is that USA has used its veto in a SC a bit too often and so the situationin middle east has been going on for years and I'm afraid soon is the harvest time. Or maybe it was already.

[Shuckins]

"...they are Israeli occupied...with permanent status to be determined through further negotiations..."

That proves that these are occupied areas largely under Israeli control...they are under no obligation to grant citizenship to its population.  The Gaza Strip is occupied by the Israeli military, for Israel was given the responsibility of maintaining order and security.  Other powers were transfered to the Palestinian authority under the Israel-PLO DOP Agreement.  The residents of the Gaza Strip are NOT citizens of Israel.  The attempts to organize the Gaza Strip are summed up by the following statement from the CIA world fact book:

"Direct negotiations to determine the permanent status of Gaza and the West Bank that began in December 1999 after a three year hiatus, were derailed by a second intifadah that broke out in September 2000.  The resulting widespread violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's military response, and instability within the Palestinian Authority continue to undermine progress toward a permanent agreement."