New Developer Update from HT...

[Cobra412]

Well all I figured compared to most of the community it will affect the skinners and map makers the most.  The current update says new models are being done and old ones updated to the new AH2 specs.  

Also in the update it said that their would be no more mirroring which is an awesome thing.  I don't know if we should go on hold for skins or keep pressing with the ones we are doing.  I expect it'll take a extremely long time to get all the models and skin layouts done.  

One thing I'd like to find out from the skinners community is what skins are folks going to produce or reproduce for the new skin and model layouts?  I wonder if HT can have some type of skins cycler so that all the skins we are all designing can be implemented(historic ofcourse).  With it only allowing 15 skins per plane it kinda limits aircraft that had alot of different paint schemes.  I know the Ponys have a ton and though some are just slightly different there are a alot more that have very unique schemes.  They have alot out there too that have fairly significant backgrounds that I feel deserve exposure to the whole community.  Best thing would to have some kind of skin/background page so not only are we flying the game we love but also learning about the folks who lived it.

Anyway here are the Pony skins I plan on making when the new layouts and models come out.

P-51Ds:  "The Flying Undertaker", "Big Beautiful Doll", "Contrary Mary", "The Gunfighter", "Lou IV", "Frenesi", "Shangri La".

Possible P-51Ds:  Captain Leroy Grosshueschs P-51D, "Hurry Home Hunny", "Sunny VIII", and "Down for Double".

P-51Bs:  "Lambie II", "Shangri La", "Shovelnose and Handlebar", "Hot Pants" and "Carols Daddy".

The P-51B skins are subject to change depending on further research.  Same goes with the P-51Ds but I doubt that any of them will be dropped off the list.

[Krusty]

Yeah... um.. the p51s are already "redone"... They're not going to change. Only the "old" ones with 256x256 textures are going to be remapped. Those already in 1024 ARE the new skins.

[Cobra412]

Krusty you may wanna re read the Developer update.  Skins will no longer be mirrored.  Therefore there will be no one sided skin bmp layouts such as the "P-51D".  Yes the skin size has changed from 256x256 to 1024x1024 but the mirroring will be gone.  

If mirroring will be gone according to Pyro then the skins with only a single side skin layout will have to be adjusted in one way or another to allow for individual side paint schemes.  It will also allow for more elaborate detailing of each skin.

Pyros Developer Update dated 28 July 2004

The new spec uses a more detailed model and a new texture mapping that makes the entire plane accessible for skinning and does not mirror any textures.

[Krusty]

I read it, yes. However the 51B already has both sides (full) and the 51D has both tails full (and 1 nose) which allows for whatever tail codes you want (without mirroring, like us 109E folks have to deal with!). I don't think they'll change the 51D personally, as it is "skinner friendly"... well, when compared to the skinner unfriendly ones, at any rate.

[Cobra412]

The skins will either have more mirror spots or they will be like the P-51B skin(Even the Pony B has masking issues from one side to the next).  Currently you are an always will be mirroring the PonyD skin.  The Pony D isn't as user friendly as you may think.  Just so you know the B  model pony isn't a full skin with no mirroring even though it has full left and right sides.  Alot of information does get mirrored from the one side of the fuselage to the other.  And the Pony D also doesn't have a "full" rudder selection as you've stated and doesn't havea  full nose selection area either.  It does have selection areas but they are not designed so you can do "any" tail code or name markings you want.

Trying to line up the left fuselage name markings is a pain.  Trying to put a border around the US Insignia is a pain.  Trying to line up the tail markings for the right side is a pain.  There is no probable way at all to make Names or markings seperately on the fuselage from front to rear.  Except for in the already designate split marking areas such as the fuselage numbers or name area under the exhaust stacks and even then these positions have issues.  Your limited in length and width on those.  Tail markings are also limited to an extent.  Length, width and position is limited.  The forward fuselage has wrapping errors so doing a good checkerboard is almost impossible with out having prison bands in some areas.  

To top it off the lower portion where the wings meet to the main fuselage is almost impossible to get a correct blend on checkerboard patterns.  The wings scale is off from the top to bottom so you have to fine tune every last line pixel by pixel.  Any bands on there also have to be scaled and aligned properly.  Any writting on one wing mirrors backwards on the opposite so forget about no step cautions, fuel references or anything like that.  That goes for the main fuselage also.  Nothing can be written on one side with out being mirrored backwards on the opposite.  Currently how it's layed out whatever you place on the main fuselage area still gets mirrored to the opposite side no matter what.  The only difference is in some areas they have allowed for masking a particular area.  To find the exact X/Y reference point it's pixel by pixel adjustments to get it.  Once you've found the area it's not so bad because you can save that selection to an alpha channel.  Trying doing a more advance pattern in that area and you have to go back to adjusting here and there.

These are just a few of the problems with the current layout of the Pony D skin.  It is very limited and isn't very user friendly for precision skinning.  If you want a plane jane bird then sure it'll do the job fairly easily.  I've spent weeks upon weeks pin pointing exact areas on this skin and I'm still finding more and more stuff that needs to be mapped.  Heck it took me hours alone just to find the exact position of the spinner.  I'm not talking general area either I"m talking exact pinpoint so it's within a bump up/down and left/right.  Even then it's not perfect do to the fact that the middle area of the spinner selection is also what paints the absolute forward lower rail on the canopy.  So get rid of that color for the rail and now your also losing color towards the tip of your spinner.  So when you have a colored spinner it will also color the forward area no matter what.  The forward side rails of the wind screen are also right next to the spinner.  I had to cut out a funky L shaped area on the bottom and aft portion of the spinner selection just to keep the other rails from being painted on birds that don't have them painted.

If this skin is what you consider user friendly skin with few mirroring issues then I'd like to see a non user friendly skin.  I'm sure this is only the beginning of issues with the skin also.  Heck even the Pony B skin has issues with mirroring sides even though it does have "two full sides".  Just ask Machnix how "user friendly" the B model skin is.

[Pyro]

Originally posted by Krusty
Yeah... um.. the p51s are already "redone"... They're not going to change. Only the "old" ones with 256x256 textures are going to be remapped. Those already in 1024 ARE the new skins.

No, they will change.  Even though some of the planes have had their texture size increased, they are still just converted AH1 planes.  Redoing them to AH2 standards involves more detail going into the shape and a completely different texture map layout.  Unfortunately, this does mean that as planes are redone, their existing skins will be rendered obsolete.  However, this will be a long process and we'll give you guys a heads up as to which planes are being reworked so you don't make a skin only to have it become immediately obsolete.

[MachNix]

Well, I would redo all my P-51D skins if needed.  To me, the hard part was doing all the research to find historical paint schemes that would work with the skin layout.  I have a camouflage skin that wasn't completed because the specularity on the current skin wouldn't support it.  Once they open that up to mapping, all I can say is "Ooh Baby" – besides the camouflage, there are things I would do with the natural metal finishes.

The D has some issues – aft wing filet going in instead of out, skin for the radio mast laying on top of the aft fuselage, skin area behind the canopy coming from the wing, etc – but it can't be a priority.  There are other birds with greater needs.  The D skins already done should last for sometime.

MachNix

[Cobra412]

Thanks for the post Pyro.  I'm sure the new layouts will be a bit more user friendly than some of the current ones.  If I really was bothered by how the skins were mapped out I'd have quit skinning already.  I've spent quite a few frustrating nights trying to get the exact areas just right.  

I definately look forward to doing some new templates for the Pony D and B skins.  I'll be trying to make each area that requires painting an individual selection.  It makes it so much easier to do grabs of individual areas such as fuselages, rudder, and base layer type graphics.  You can grab only what you want then paste it and verify if it turned out okay with out messing up another part of the skin.

Pyro I do have one question though and I'm sure it would be something way down on the HT crews to do list.  I'm curious if making some kind of 3d viewer for skins has every been thrown around?  Something rather basic with natural lighting settings like the game and the ability to grab a plane, skin and an axis so you can rotate the skins through the lighting.  I know an item like this would get alot of use and help speed up the process of checking how lighting is affecting the skins colors, rivets, panel lines, ect...
Currently I spend alot of time jumping back and forth from Adobe Photoshop 7 and AH2 just so I can fine adjust pixels here and there.  Thanks again for the insight on the new skin layout.