Author Topic: More Gun control???  (Read 5606 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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More Gun control???
« Reply #150 on: August 15, 2004, 10:08:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
In 1996, America had 110,000 deaths (more than three times the number from guns) and according to a BBC report Great Britian had 33,000 deaths in 1997 related to the same thing.


You got it from me demaw, but the number didn't refer to guns.  Something far more deadly.
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Offline demaw1

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« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2004, 10:22:58 PM »
Thanks, been lookin in all the wrong places.


 Ok beetle the 33000 number didnt come from nashwan, but from H. McGrion......But the other came from nashwan.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2004, 03:17:56 AM »
OK, but that 33,000 is wrong. It would take about 50 years for that many to die as a result of homicide in Britain, and probably about 3 years in the US.

You mentioned our smaller population. Population density here is higher than in the US. Do you know what our population actually is? Demaw said
Quote
Americans have never been subjects. while europe is use to it. Therefore the second admendment was not to protect hunting,but rather as a deterant from a hitler,stalin situration.
Define a "subject" - do you mean one who lives in a country with a ruling Monarchy? Because most European countries do not have a Monarchy. And Nashwan has already covered your point about citizens being allowed to own firearms to mount an uprising in the face of an oppressive government. It might be a nice gesture, and it seems to make you happy to think that you could repulse your country's government with small arms. I think you'd find such an effort akin to a peasants' revolt, in the face of cruise missiles, cluster bombs etc. You guys on here are always crowing about your kick-arse military. Do you seriously think they could be stopped from entering your back yard if they wanted to? Like Nashwan says - take a look at Waco,TX.

Offline montag

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« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2004, 03:28:53 AM »
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Originally posted by demaw1
Thanks, been lookin in all the wrong places.


 Ok beetle the 33000 number didnt come from nashwan, but from H. McGrion......But the other came from nashwan.


LOL!!!

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2004, 04:27:54 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
OK, but that 33,000 is wrong. It would take about 50 years for that many to die as a result of homicide in Britain, and probably about 3 years in the US.


BBC says 33,000 British deaths annually is right... just not in reference to guns or homicide.  Just yet another way citizens of both countries die needlessly.  

Aren't we going to try to stop it? The USA tried to in 1919.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2004, 04:43:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
BBC says 33,000 British deaths annually is right... just not in reference to guns or homicide.  Just yet another way citizens of both countries die needlessly.  

Aren't we going to try to stop it? The USA tried to in 1919.
You're being too vague. What deaths? What causes? Old age????

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2004, 05:44:18 AM »
I was just wondering whether saving 33,000 British lives annually was worth curtailing just a wee bit of your freedom.

You seem perfectly willing to argue that America needs to curtail her freedom to save those who are victims of gun violence.
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Offline Pei

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« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2004, 05:54:52 AM »
According to the Home Office there were 1048 homicide offenses in 02/03 in England & Wales, 20 per 1 million (215 of these victims of Harold Shipman over the course of his career, 58 were illegal Chinese immigrants who sufficated while being smuggled in the back of a lorry).

According to the Scottish office there were 127 homicide offenses - 44 per 1 million.
Seems very high but rates of drug abuse and alcohol offenses are also significantly higher north of the border as well.

If you are wondering why the Sottish statistics are separate it is because Scotland has a seperate legal system to England and Wales.

I can't find stats for Northern Ireland (need to check the NI Office).

Somewhat less than 33K all told.

US DoJ quotes 5.5 per 100, 000 for 2000 (i.e. 55 per 1 million) but of course we may not be comparing like with like.

On the face of it if I live in England or Wales I am nearly three times less likely to be murdered than if I live in US, however if I live in Scotland I am only  20% less likely to be murdered.

Personally I am not against citizens owning firearms (I used to hold a license myself), but I do see it as privilege rather than a right (just like driving a car: I have to prove I am safe, I have to register my car and prove I look after it and I can have the privilege taken away if I abuse it).

I think the ban on hand guns was fairly futile, but it had little effect either way as hand gun ownership was so low anyway.

I don't see the need for fully automatic or very high calibre weapons (e.g. 50 cals): the damage they could cause if they were abused far outweighs any sporting or defence purposes IMHO.

I don't see the whole defence against tyranny argument at all: it might have made sense a couple of hundred years ago when a citizen could be sensibly armed with a weapon equivalent to what the government could use, but in the days of tanks and machineguns (let alone jets and smart bombs) it's  pointless.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #158 on: August 16, 2004, 06:09:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Pei
According to the Home Office there were 1048 homicide offenses in 02/03 in England & Wales....

Somewhat less than 33K all told.


Quote
BBC says 33,000 British deaths annually is right... just not in reference to guns or homicide. Just yet another way citizens of both countries die needlessly.
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2004, 07:32:00 AM »
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According to the Scottish office there were 127 homicide offenses - 44 per 1 million.


There's something wrong there. The population of Scotland is around 5,050,000. 127 murders is 25 per million.

Quote
US DoJ quotes 5.5 per 100, 000 for 2000 (i.e. 55 per 1 million) but of course we may not be comparing like with like.


The UK figures include manslaughter by negligence, the US figures specifically exclude it.

Quote
According to the Home Office there were 1048 homicide offenses in 02/03 in England & Wales, 20 per 1 million (215 of these victims of Harold Shipman over the course of his career, 58 were illegal Chinese immigrants who sufficated while being smuggled in the back of a lorry).


I believe the Chinese immigrants was in 2001/02.

The figures for 03/04 came out recently, the number of murders was 853, down 2% on the last year excluding shipman, down about 20% including Shipman.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 07:39:20 AM by Nashwan »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2004, 07:50:45 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You seem perfectly willing to argue that America needs to curtail her freedom to save those who are victims of gun violence.
I never ever said that. I have only ever commented on the status quo.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2004, 08:18:21 AM »
you guys crack me up... when I show that 1000 homicides a year in england is the same per capita homicide rate as all the white homicide rate in the U.S... that is total... guns or no guns.... you claim that it is because the minorities are not seperated from your rate... you don't even have a significant minority rate... if you did the problem would skyrocket even more...  

So... you got rid of guns and got more crime with the same amopunt of homicides as white Amecica but... it is so much better to be bludgeouned to death or stabbed... personally... I will keep the guns and bring a handgun to all the knife fights I attend... All but 11 state find that works.

Then... when I point out that your crime has increased, crime against people like muggings and burglary and that you have over 50% of your burglaries being "hot"  (owner home)....you claim it is because your government changed the way crimes are reported (in order to look like a poor government?) or that.... some politico is letting too many crooks out.

point is... unarmed people are being victimized by the government and strongarm crooks...  you have just as high a murder rate besides.

As for guns in the U.S.   more guns equal less crime here.  it is proven over and over.  more handguns is the the big factor... concealed carry.... less and less crooks are armed with guns as laws against crime using firearms are strengthened.  Any crook here can get a gun with little trouble... outside of crazed ones and gang members.... most crooks avoid guns because of the increased penalties... it would matter not who I sold my guns to or... who sold em to me for that matter.   waste of time to worry about it.

FBI studies show between 2 and three million crimes are prevented with firearms every year here.   Allmost all the people who die are from firearms are bad guys or victims of cold blooded killers who kill and are never found... they would kill in any case.  The white on white killings are just like in england... the same number.   It wouldn't change except maybe rise if there were no guns.

you guys gave up your (and worse, your fellow "subjects") human right to defend yourselves..... for nothing... you even made things worse with your goody goody meddling.   Your crimes against people continue to rise as does your murder rate and the rate that guns are being used.

oh... I believe that demaw is talking about booze... never seen so many boozers and smokers as in england... yet... you pansies are afraid of a tool you could use to defend yourselves?  maybe you are right beetle and nash....maybe you drunks shouldn't have tools tho.

You sissies got suckered into giving up your means to defend yourself so now you want everyone else to suffer too.  you are simply frieghtened and jealous... there can be no other motive...the "dishonest, ignorant or both" explanation applies the most to foreighners who have no stake in our laws save their own private neurosis.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2004, 09:53:24 AM »
Got in on this a little late, but I couldn`t help but notice the number of posts on the first page concerning the M16 as used by a criminal and the thoughts concerning gun control to deny criminals guns.
First off, as has been stated, the M16 is rarely used in a crime.
If I were going for full auto fire power , the M16 would be way down the list.
I don`t really know are care how gun control pans out in other countries, but here in the U.S. more gun control simply plays into the bad guys hands. In other words it makes their "job" a lot easier. The only thing more gun control does here is deny the private citizen that wishs to observe the law a means by which to deter or stop the baddies and to protect themselves.
As for as denying criminals guns with gun control , simply put it`s plain hogwash.
  Do you ever stop and think about how many thousands and thousands of guns there are out there that or not registered or ANY records what so ever on them? Do you know how easy they are to get?
  There was a county in the north east United States that ran an experiment. I believe it was in the 80`s or possibly early 90`s. For a certain period of time they made it legal for any person without a record to legaly carry a concealed handgun. This area had a very, very high crime rate. The outcome on the experiment? Their crime rate dropped to one of the lowest in the U.S. in a little over a month. It`s a whole new ballgame when when some modern day wanna be Jessie James pulls up in front of the local 7/11 with a little quick cash on his mind and has to stop and wonder if the little white haired lady behind the register might be packin a 44 under her smock.
 If all else were to fail for the career criminal due to gun control, (which will never happen), got any idea how easy it is to turn out quality firearms in a simple home shop with a few inexpensive machining tools? In prohibition booze was made illegal and it spurred one of the biggest and most profitable criminal industres in history. Same will happen if gun control reaches a certain level and in some cases is allready happening.
  Getting back to the full auto topic, I said if I wanted full auto the M!6 wouldn`t be a choice. If I wasn`t particularly interested on  abiding by some laws their are a lot better ways to go.
  Do you know how many semi-autos there are that can be converted very simply to full auto with an expense of
10 to 20 dollars? Most of these are far more reliable than the M16 and with more fire power. Even these are avoided in most criminal situations because they are totaly unnecessary.
  These are very violent times and seem to be getting worse. Sticking your head under your pillow and pretending this doesn`t exist doen`t feed the bulldog when you hear your door being kicked in at 3:00 AM.
  I at least want a chance to defend my family when and if this happens. I`ve looked down the wrong end of a barrel and have seen the muzzle flash meant to take me out. Time stops, vision goes tunnel in a heartbeat. You react on instinct or die . Simple as that.
  Any of us might get taken out violently. It`s just a fact of the times we live in. For me, I like to have the odds stacked in my favor as much as possible.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2004, 10:00:15 AM »
LOL Lazs! How long did it take you to type all that?

Oh wait - you cut-n-pasted it from the end of another gun thread. :lol

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2004, 11:12:41 AM »
nope... no cut and paste.  As for length... read nashwans stuff... he is more concerned about gun control in the U.S. than most Americans are... got to wonder about his motives.

I think he is jealous with a touch of elitism thrown in for good measure... you know "only the elite deserve weapons.. everyone else is too stupid or crazy"    It is a "ruling class" thing yu brits have I guess...  We don't think that way here thank gawd.

lazs