Ever wonder about the small, real life stuff?

[Kweassa]

... like, when the RAF first captured a Fw190A... what would they have said? What'd have they done? Did they already know about its basic interface? Did the Intelligence department or covert ops provide any stolen manuals?

 Like.. how do you start the engine of a fighter that's captured for the very first time?

 Read the tags on the instruments and try it?

 Dismantle the plane, study it, and reassemble it?

 Try pressing buttons("Hmm.. I wonder what this button does..")?

 Or, compare it with the existing plane of your own side, and try the same procedures(magnetos.. fuel line switches.. starters.. etc etc..)?

 Come to think of it, despite all the 'data' or 'performance chart' or etc etc etc stuff, I seem to know nothing of the everyday procedures of the pilots in those days.. or how people did what with what they had.. and etc etc.

 Sometimes, I wonder about these small stuff.

[SELECTOR]

when an aircraft is captured. its taken to peicesthe boffins..engineering experts and the like.. put back together and flown... im sure there were not many suprises waiting for this band of experts..

[Angus]

When the RAF got its first 190 they already were planning a commando raid on a French field where a British test pilot would steal one ;=)
Selected pilot, Jeffrey Quill BTW.

One american pilot shot down over enemy lines actually nicked a 190 and got home in it.
He bellylanded, for he could not in his tight situation, figure out how the gear went down.

[Pongo]

An american pilot stole a 190a and flew it home. IIRC

[Guppy35]

The American pilot who swiped the 190 was 354th FG Ace Bruce Carr.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0295valor.asp

Of course that first captured intact 190 was the A3 of Arnim Faber that he landed at Pembry in South Wales, by mistake.

Image is one given to me by a Spit pilot from his scrapbook showing Faber's 190A3

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

Guppy, you're the best.
Nice picture.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kweassa
... like, when the RAF first captured a Fw190A... what would they have said? What'd have they done? Did they already know about its basic interface? Did the Intelligence department or covert ops provide any stolen manuals?

 Like.. how do you start the engine of a fighter that's captured for the very first time?

 Read the tags on the instruments and try it?

 Dismantle the plane, study it, and reassemble it?

 Try pressing buttons("Hmm.. I wonder what this button does..")?

 Or, compare it with the existing plane of your own side, and try the same procedures(magnetos.. fuel line switches.. starters.. etc etc..)?

 Come to think of it, despite all the 'data' or 'performance chart' or etc etc etc stuff, I seem to know nothing of the everyday procedures of the pilots in those days.. or how people did what with what they had.. and etc etc.

 Sometimes, I wonder about these small stuff.

One of the Spit pilots I got to know was a B of B vet, Clive Gosling, who did a tour as a service test pilot with Supermarine before returning to Ops in 44 with 616 Squadron flying Spits then the first Meteors.  In May of 45 he and his CO were sent down to recover a pair of Me262s at Fassberg.  When they got there his CO went off to hang out with his buddies in the officer's mess while Clive was given an interpreter and hooked up with a German pilot who'd flown the 262.  Once Clive figured out that the German pilot spoke English, things went fairly quickly as he got the cockpit tour and details from the German.  Clive then filled in his CO and they got in and took off.

So it was basically some quick handwritten notes and off they went in a 262 for the first time.

Image is the 262 that 616 Squadron pilot Clive Gosling flew in May of 45.  He let me make a copy negative of his original photo.  This was pre-scanner days btw.

Dan/Slack

[HoHun]

Hi Kweassa,

>... like, when the RAF first captured a Fw190A... what would they have said? What'd have they done? Did they already know about its basic interface? Did the Intelligence department or covert ops provide any stolen manuals?

>Like.. how do you start the engine of a fighter that's captured for the very first time?

The plan to steal a Fw 190 from the Abbéville airfield which Angus already mentioned was hinged around getting a plane which had its engine already running, started by a German airman for warming it up for a dawn patrol.

Jeffrey Quill pointed out that flying the Focke-Wulf should have been no major problem (he was provided with fragmentary data on the Fw 190 from intelligence sources), but there was no chance at all to start up an unknown engine in a hurry because the exact procedure was critical.

Operation of captured fighters often was problematic, even for examples that were in good condition. The US for example tested a captured Focke-Wulf with what I figure were very quite accurate results, except that for some reason, the engine kept cutting out at high altitude.

Later, NACA got the Kommandogerät for evaluation, and they found that the hydraulic oil inside was foaming at altitude. I'm not sure they ever reported that back to the original testers - who at that time were long through with their testing anyway.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Crumpp]

The US for example tested a captured Focke-Wulf with what I figure were very quite accurate results, except that for some reason, the engine kept cutting out at high altitude.

The test pilot for the FW-190:

1. Complains about aileron reversal and the tendancy to stall in the turns. Only in the Luftwaffe test and this test is any problem with ailerons in the turn. The RAF, which tested several different varients of 190's during the war, never mentions this characteristic. The RAF mentions stalling but never aileron reversal. That simply was not a characteristic of a properly serviced 190.

2. There was obvious engine problems. The motor fouled plugs at low speed and simply quit at altitude on several occasions. Probably did not like US AvGas. Powerloading does effect turn radius but not nearly as much as wingloading.

In those test's the FW-190 turn EXTREMELY badly. In fact there are only TWO tests' that mention aileron problems when turning. The USAAF tactical trails with an FW-190A5/U4 and the Luftwaffe Tactical trials of an FW-190A2 vs. Bf-109F4.

A P51 does turn with an F4U. An FW-190A turns with a P51B with the P51B having a "slight" advantage. Certainly not outturning it in a couple of turns. Yet the F4U and the Hellcat in these tactical trials easily outturned the FW-190.

In the FW-190A2 vs. Bf-109F4 tactical trials, it is specifically mentioned that the ailerons must be properly adjusted and the grip proof tips properly positioned. This has an adverse effect on low speed handling and causes premature stalling in the turns.

Check out the aileron comments on this website:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm

Now cross-reference that with the FW-190A5 condition on the USAAF tactical trials. Fairly extensive repairs were done to this A/C. It was a crashed and recovered A/C. I think the ailerons were out of adjustment.

Again, these two trials are the only mention of a problem with stalling in the turns.
Let me know if you need a copy of the USAAF tactical trials with the FW-190A5.

Crumpp

[Rino]

Originally posted by Angus
When the RAF got its first 190 they already were planning a commando raid on a French field where a British test pilot would steal one ;=)
Selected pilot, Jeffrey Quill BTW.

One american pilot shot down over enemy lines actually nicked a 190 and got home in it.
He bellylanded, for he could not in his tight situation, figure out how the gear went down.

     That was Bruce Carr, we had him as a speaker for one of the AW conventions.

[Rino]

Just wanted to add something about Bruce Carr's theft of
the 190.  Apparently Carr had been shot down and had evaded
for a couple days.  He had watched a "black gang" work on
this 190 during the afternoon and had decided this would be
an excellent place to keep dry and warm during the night.

     It was only after he was in the cockpit that he realized that
the 190 was operational and that was when he decided to
steal it.

     Apparently he managed to make it back to his base, but after
being targetted by friendly AAA and not being able to lower the
gear, ditched it along side the runway.

     The squadron CO showed up as the MPs were roughing Carr
up believing him to be a LW pilot.  He recognized Carr and the
first words out of his mouth were, 'Carr, where the %^&* have
you been?".

     I remember Carr not being too impressed with us flight sim
geeks as he apparently thought we were trying to equate
playing a game to what he did in real life.