Missing the Point about the New System?

[Taiaha]

In the midst of the unbelievable volume of posts concerning the new system I think one important fact is getting lost: why we need a new "system" in the first place.  Even many of those critical of the new system would have to admit that the reason for "the system" in the first place is because the MA isn't working for a lot of people.

And the reason we have this latest attempt at a fix is because of three words about which very little has been said for a long, long time by HTC: Tour of Duty.  Anyone remember that?  The thing that those of us who aren't obsessed with marginally prettified planes were looking forward to?  Let's not get sidetracked by discussions about whether this or that facet of the MA is gamey (take your pick:gangbanging, milkrunning, score-whoring, etc.): the WHOLE MA is gamey.

Those of us looking for a little more realism, challenge, immersion in AH are still waiting.  Of course there's the CT, and I have nothing but a big to the fine pilots I've flown with and against there.  And more and more of my time in AH seems to be spent there, or at least the times that I remember fondly.  But even the CT vets will admit that the CT falls far short of the original vision of TOD that HTC laid out lo those many months ago.  

Despite its many fine features (and this is why this is most emphatically NOT a "I'm taking my ball and going home" post), the shortcomings of AH are becoming apparent.  They are spectactularly on display in the current BOB scenario (in the last BOB scenario we were lamenting the fact that we were faced with a bombing tank in the form of the JU 88, with a kevlar plated cockpit and belt-fed machine guns, suspiciously under-modelled 303s--and guess what, all this time later, we're still having the same conversation.  It's just that now we're having the conversation about a bombing tank that looks marginally better).

I get the strong impression that my own squad is drifting slowly but surely toward Forgotten Battles.  Those of you who play it know its virtues, but with the new online campaign structures (and now, with some players testing 64 player servers), not to mention an amazing looking Pacific Fighters game due out shortly, it's delivering much of the punch that I was looking for (and for which I'm still waiting) from TOD.

I don't see that this has to be an either/or proposition.  But sometimes it looks that way because AH isn't catering to those of us who want a little more from a flight sim (flying against lots of great real pilots, within an integrated campaign structure, and with realistic equipment: so far only the first is in place, and HTC really didn't have much to do with that!).  So personally, I don't mind the new system, but it isn't really going to address the problem as far as I'm concerned.

[nopoop]

Originally posted by Taiaha
AH isn't catering to those of us who want a little more from a flight sim (flying against lots of great real pilots, within an integrated campaign structure

Good post Taiaha. I would submit though that your idea of a "game" structure and the goals of such is in the minority. A small minority in fact.

Good input.

[Hyrax81st]

I mentioned the ToD "cure for what ails ya" in another post. I was hoping we would see that soon after the major bugs were fixed in AH2 (even before new planes ?), but this came up first. MA will probably become more of a large dueling arena for dogfighters with many squads opting for ToD.

At least I hope so...

[Warspawn]

Originally posted by Taiaha
In They are spectactularly on display in the current BOB scenario (in the last BOB scenario we were lamenting the fact that we were faced with a bombing tank in the form of the JU 88, with a kevlar plated cockpit and belt-fed machine guns, suspiciously under-modelled 303s--and guess what, all this time later, we're still having the same conversation.  It's just that now we're having the conversation about a bombing tank that looks marginally better).

I'm not going into this much here, except for the fact that a 1/3rd inch round punching thru mostly fabric and light metal isn't going to do a whole lot.  The pilots in the current BoB scenario know you have to get close and put a ton of lead into a bomber in order to bring it down; or, target pilot/critical areas of a very durable aircraft in order to cause enough damage to cause destruction of the airframe or flying capability.  At 200+ range your average spray and pray type pilot will get very frustrated at "why isn't he dead, I saw PINGS!" ...this comming from folks used to huge 20mm/30mm rounds causing catastrophic damage on an aircraft.

The folks running the current BoB scenario have gone to great lengths in order to recreate one of the most decisive moments in air combat history.  Learn from the difficulties the RAF faced when battling its opponents and marvel that they overcame the odds that they did and emerged the heroic pilots that history has written for them.  Also realize that the only thing that saved our British friends was the misuse and missappropriation of assets in a mighty fight over their (England) homeland by the command staff and political leadership of Germany during that time.  Fortunately for the AH community, we have the opportunity to re-enact such things with lessons learned from past blunders and take part in just 'what might have been' and be thankful for the way history was written previously.

The RAF was outnumbered, its opponent had superior equipment at that time, and (the RAF) still had the courage and strength to overcome impossible odds.  But then...the RAF was fighting for its life and the survival of its family and country; not merely a 'score' or some fleeting bit of prestige in a virtual world.

It GREATLY distresses me to see RAF pilots saying they refuse to fly because "WwwaaaaaAA  the Luftwaffe is flying too high!"  or, "NOOoo  their bombers are too tough/thier fighters have too much fuel!!"  We aren't recreating the BoB there..we're doing a 'what if' scenario to illustrate just HOW great the heart the RAF had when facing an overpowering foe, and how huge the mistakes were that were made by the LW command during that year that lead to the defeat of the mightiest airforce the world had seen up to that point...

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st
MA will probably become more of a large dueling arena for dogfighters with many squads opting for ToD.
 

I don`t get it. Why would you assume this? It has been stated that in TOD the squads will no longer be formatted as in the MA. TOD will be more interest to the box gamers than folks in the MA IMHO. Why would anyone wish to take a structured squad into an enviroment where you have no control and no say so over initiative input over what is happening in a certain situation.
  TOD is not going to be a setup where you can up and fly at any time. It is going to be setup for certain preplanned missions to roll on a timed schedule. Most here screamed like a pig under a gate at the mention in HTs original idea of a "time out" basis for certain planes when numbers became skewed. I just don`t see folks that are squad flyers in the MA now, and have been for some time, going through the "jump through a hoop for a bone" routine, etc just to fly in something where everything is preplaned. Nor do I see those that have played combat flight sims for a while going through the box gamer routine of gaining rank, training, etc to follow someone else`s lead.
  As I have said before, I do believe it will open up a whole new community for online play for those that have became accustomed to offline box gamer like setups. I beleive it will be a great place for the younger player that we are seeing coming into the MA on a regular basis now to get the feel of a well made, more realistic sim, then graduate to the MA and feel like they are a little better prepared for it. A lot of these players sign up, get discouraged within a few days and go back to Quake or something of that nature simply because they cannot compete there as quickly as they would like to. I think TOD will give them some place to learn in surroundings similar to what they have gotten used to in a game.

[Taiaha]

Originally posted by Warspawn
I'm not going into this much here, except for the fact that a 1/3rd inch round punching thru mostly fabric and light metal isn't going to do a whole lot.  The pilots in the current BoB scenario know you have to get close and put a ton of lead into a bomber in order to bring it down; or, target pilot/critical areas of a very durable aircraft in order to cause enough damage to cause destruction of the airframe or flying capability.  At 200+ range your average spray and pray type pilot will get very frustrated at "why isn't he dead, I saw PINGS!" ...this comming from folks used to huge 20mm/30mm rounds causing catastrophic damage on an aircraft.

 I KNOW all this.  And as a squad based on a historical WW2 unit, so do all the rest of my squad.  Of course one 303 round doesn't do much damage.  That is why you have 8 guns with a high rate of fire.  Yes you still have to get in close.  But I guarant-damn-tee-you that if every historical BOB pilot had to aim for the wingtips to try and ensure the kill on their bomber, history would have turned out very differently.  Of course you go for the critical areas, which is why BOB pilots tried to target the glasshouses on the Luftwaffe bombers.  But you can't kill the crew in an AH 88.  Try it sometime with one of your bodies (we've run these tests in the SEA several times).  See how many rounds of 303 into the cockpit of an 88 it takes to bring it down.  A 303 round may not do much punching through metal, but it's pretty damn good at inflicting soft tissue damage.  Read up on crew losses in LW bombers, even those that managed to make it back, and you'll see what I mean.

I always have a lot of respect for the guys who put the time into organizing the scenarios, although that doesn't mean that they always do a perfect job and are above receiving suggestions.

And it's precisely because I do have enormous respect for the pilots of both sides who fought in the battle, under conditions that we are not even coming close to replicating in many ways, that I think we shouldn't have to put up with so many gamey elements in what is supposed to be a historical reenactment.

[Taiaha]

Originally posted by Jackal1
I don`t get it. Why would you assume this? It has been stated that in TOD the squads will no longer be formatted as in the MA. TOD will be more interest to the box gamers than folks in the MA IMHO. Why would anyone wish to take a structured squad into an enviroment where you have no control and no say so over initiative input over what is happening in a certain situation.

Umm, because that's what it was like in real life?  Or do you think that in WW2 every pilot got to choose their own missions and fight conditions?  And that's what I'm talking about, and Nopoop is right that I'm probably in a minority here.  At the same time I don't think it is an insignificant minority to judge from the number of people that turn out for scenarios, the CT, Combat Mission, Squadops etc.  I also think you are vastly underestimating the number of people who fly as a squad in the MA (and the whining about the new system has pushed the "but what if my squad can't get it's ride and we want to fly together" line).  Squad flying may of course have lessened of late since there's little tactical challenge or effectiveness to be gained by doing it in a gangbang environment.  When I see a couple of guys working as wingmen these days I'm impressed.

 

Originally posted by Jackal1
As I have said before, I do believe it will open up a whole new community for online play for those that have became accustomed to offline box gamer like setups. I beleive it will be a great place for the younger player that we are seeing coming into the MA on a regular basis now to get the feel of a well made, more realistic sim, then graduate to the MA and feel like they are a little better prepared for it. A lot of these players sign up, get discouraged within a few days and go back to Quake or something of that nature simply because they cannot compete there as quickly as they would like to. I think TOD will give them some place to learn in surroundings similar to what they have gotten used to in a game.

Hahahahahah. . .oh, I'm sorry, you were serious, and awesomely condescending to boot.  If your last experience of a "box sim" was "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" then you might have a point.  But to hold AH up as the gold standard of flight realism at the moment is just ridiculous.  HT's been pretty honest that there are a lot of concessions made for gameplay purposes in this sim: take-offs and landings are very easy, even in some planes that were notoriously difficult to manage in those areas, there is no realistic engine management (sorry, but twiddling the RPM up and down, while a step in the right direction, hardly qualifies as full realism), engine damage is not realistically modelled (only a couple of components that can be hit, and when hit, many of the engines fly on and on with no diminution of power. . .) and so on.  Should AH be FB?  No, of course not, they are different beasts.  If TOD ends up being as you describe it, a TA for the MA, then there goes my subscription.  That, however, was not the original vision, at least as HT laid it out.  Far from being MA light, it will (I hope) be a place where a lot of the hotshots in the MA won't last a New York minute because (gasp) they might actually have to work with someone else, employ real SA and ACM, etc.  Actually, I think the appeal of the TOD will (mercifully) be self-limiting, because based on the volume of whining about the new system, there seem to be a lot of people flying this sim who are only capable of flying one single plane, and if that one isn't available in a particular TOD mission in that particular time ("I don't care if it's 1942 in the Pacific, I want my 51D!") they will pack a tanty and bugger off.

[humble]

Didn't fly the early spitty or hurr in AH2 at all so I may be off, but I flew the hurricane alot in the CT...absolutely ate up JU-88's and 110's with no problem at all. Unless gunnery model has really changed the problem is simply poor gunnery. You need to hit at convergence in one spot. But 8 x .303 will saw a wing or tail of pretty easily if you do. Had my convergance set for 150 and only fire from 125 to 175...

[GRUNHERZ]

So after all those words annd profound fluff  this is basically a whine about:

1. Ju88 toughness.

2. 303 weakness.

[humble]

AS for TOD, from what I read HT/Pyro felt that their would be very little crossover from the existing player base. I tend to agree with that assessment. Obviously without the ability to "preview" the game you (or I) have no real idea of what to expect. So I think the expectations (yours high, mine low) might be completely at odds with the reality.

The bottom line for me is pretty simple, when I started back in 1993 the game (AW for me) revolved primarily around individual skill and small unit (wingman) tactics...fights were primarily 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2. Furballs were rare and enjoyable treats. The game stayed this way well into 2002...as AW failed WB's stagnated and HT learned how to market the player base grew rapidly. Now you have an arena were individual skill is less significant than a variety of other factors (as it was in real life) so as the MA "mirrors" reality more and more it loses it's appeal for some. This was further "enhanced" by the numbers imbalance...

[Charon]

Of course you go for the critical areas, which is why BOB pilots tried to target the glasshouses on the Luftwaffe bombers.

I believe it was Stanford Tuck in the BoB who described training his pilots to attack quickly line astern so that multiple Hurricanes could bring down a German bomber in quick order. He felt that it was not something that a single plane could do effectively. He disliked the .303 and was a big proponet of the 20mm. Didn't seem to be a lot of greenhouse targeting (except with headons) when receiving return fire from planes about as fast as yours (Ju-88/Do-17 at least).

Charon

[Karnak]

Tuck almost got in a fist fight with Bader over the .303 vs. 20mm issue.  Bader thought they should stick with the .303 as it had worked so far and wartime was the wrong time to be mucking about with things. Tuck was sure they'd have gotten quite a few more if they'd had cannon.

The Spitfire Mk Va (which Bader was flying when he was captured) only existed, I think, because of Bader's insistance that the .303 be maintained.


That said, read up on the changes in the bullets used in the .303 and how much more effective they got.  These were not WWI .303s.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Taiaha
Umm, because that's what it was like in real life?  Or do you think that in WW2 every pilot got to choose their own missions and fight conditions?  And that's what I'm talking about, and Nopoop is right that I'm probably in a minority here.  At the same time I don't think it is an insignificant minority to judge from the number of people that turn out for scenarios, the CT, Combat Mission, Squadops etc.  I also think you are vastly underestimating the number of people who fly as a squad in the MA (and the whining about the new system has pushed the "but what if my squad can't get it's ride and we want to fly together" line).  Squad flying may of course have lessened of late since there's little tactical challenge or effectiveness to be gained by doing it in a gangbang environment.  When I see a couple of guys working as wingmen these days I'm impressed.

 

  No, I`m not underestimating the number of people who fly with a squad. That`s the point. MA Squads are not going to want to be broken up run through "boot camp", so to speak , then to be assigned, plane, mission objectives, etc by some yet to be determined system.IMO.
  Squad flying has not decreased in the MA, it has increased. Here`s a hint for you concerning the WWII thingy. This is not WWII, it`s an online place where squaddies like to go, throw down a few, and fly with each other in a sort of layed back enviroment. Most have been flying with each other as a squad for some length of time. Those that are new squad members quickly become attached to their squad and the enjoyment of each other`s company. You know, the fun aspect. remember that?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Taiaha
Hahahahahah. . .oh, I'm sorry, you were serious, and awesomely condescending to boot.  If your last experience of a "box sim" was "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" then you might have a point.  But to hold AH up as the gold standard of flight realism at the moment is just ridiculous.  HT's been pretty honest that there are a lot of concessions made for gameplay purposes in this sim: take-offs and landings are very easy, even in some planes that were notoriously difficult to manage in those areas, there is no realistic engine management (sorry, but twiddling the RPM up and down, while a step in the right direction, hardly qualifies as full realism), engine damage is not realistically modelled (only a couple of components that can be hit, and when hit, many of the engines fly on and on with no diminution of power. . .) and so on.  Should AH be FB?  No, of course not, they are different beasts.  If TOD ends up being as you describe it, a TA for the MA, then there goes my subscription.  That, however, was not the original vision, at least as HT laid it out.  Far from being MA light, it will (I hope) be a place where a lot of the hotshots in the MA won't last a New York minute because (gasp) they might actually have to work with someone else, employ real SA and ACM, etc.  Actually, I think the appeal of the TOD will (mercifully) be self-limiting, because based on the volume of whining about the new system, there seem to be a lot of people flying this sim who are only capable of flying one single plane, and if that one isn't available in a particular TOD mission in that particular time ("I don't care if it's 1942 in the Pacific, I want my 51D!") they will pack a tanty and bugger off. [/B]

  Condescending?   Don`t know where that came from.
  As far as TOD becoming a TA for the MA , I think you missed my point. What I meant was it will be a good place for the "box gamer" to learn and get the feel of planes, ACM, and overall characteristics of online play in an enviroment where they will not be so easily discouraged and quit completely like we see with a lot of them that come to the MA and can`t compete as quick as they would like to. In  other words there are no powerups or levels, etc that they are used to, so they lose interest. It takes a while to learn. I think they will then be more interested in the MA and feel more capable of competing.
  Don`t know where you got your "vision" as laid out by HT at, but in an interview that was posted on a gaming site HT said that TOD would interest, hopefully, play for the box gamer.
  I`m sure TOD, while in the process of being made, has allready and will continue to change and adapt as time goes by, just as gameplay has been transformed in the MA. HT listens to the player base and then trys to come up with solutions as they are needed.