SpitV vs SpitIX Verticle Climb

[Furball]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Actually Furball,

The Energy fight should be a very exciting fight.  Just read about Randy Cunningham vs Col. Toon.

I have, and its not that exciting. (Fighter Combat - Robert Shaw)

Originally posted by Crumpp

At least much more exciting than "lock on their tail and match maneuvers" angle fighting.

Personally i think being the defender requires far more skill than the attacker.  And its a position i much more enjoy being in.  I find no satisfaction in BnZ.  Nothing, nothing in AH surpasses fighting as the underdog and winning.

Originally posted by Crumpp

Luftwhiners!  That seems to be the standard answer when folks have no facts left to present.

I presented my facts immediately after i called you a luftwhiner?

Originally posted by Crumpp


The bullet can go that far, sure.  If the gunnery is realistic though good luck hitting.  Especially with that Hispano.  Ever seen the ballistics?  The .50 cal has a better chance of hitting but being a solid slug will lose some it's damage potential in that long flight.  If you got wing mounted .50 cals, GOOD LUCK!!  Your bullets will be about 30 feet or more to the right or left depending on your convergence.  Given dispersion IF your really really lucky you might land A single hit.

Crumpp

Yes, this is a game, i have no idea if it is realistic.  But, i know from experience you can hit from that far and i have done regularly. I used to vulch aircraft and pt's (not tried it in AH2) from 1.4k+ in F4U-1C with great success.

As for the spiral climb batz, i use that myself, but your average joe (or fritz may be more appropriate) BnZ'er doesn't.

[Crumpp]

Furball,

You presented no facts.  Just a pile of you opinion.  Check out the science by following the links I provided.

 

You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph+ but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.

So sorry but the science just doesn't back it up.  I know you want your UFO, but we are simulating planes here.  I think the game your are looking for is "X-Wing".

Presenting facts is not "Hey the game goes like this".  If the game is contrary to actual performance than it needs to be changed.

Crumpp

[Furball]

Originally posted by Furball
but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.

So its not a fact that if a perfectly timed lead turn or reversal on an attacker will result in a shooting opportunity?

Originally posted by Furball
Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect)

So its not a fact that Hispano's and 50'cals in Aces High can hit upwards of 800 yards?

Originally posted by Furball
 so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.

So its not a fact that 800 - 1,000 yards is 2,400 - 3,000 feet or that you will need to be moving pretty damn fast to not present yourself as a target inside that range?


And as for flying 'my UFO' - i fly all different aircraft types, i choose what i feel like depending on what i want to do and if i fancy a challenge.

[Crumpp]

So its not a fact that 800 - 1,000 yards is 2,400 - 3,000 feet or that you will need to be moving pretty damn fast to not present yourself as a target inside that range?

It's fact bro, that you don't shoot very many real weapons if that is what you believe.  Aircraft weapons are even more problematic.  Robert Shaw has a great section on the problem of fixed aircraft ballistics.

So its not a fact that if a perfectly timed lead turn or reversal on an attacker will result in a shooting opportunity?

That is a broad stroke statement.  In my personal experience it was not a lead but rather a LAG turn the spit conducted.  He then zoomed up and caught the FW-190A8 I was in.

So its not a fact that Hispano's and 50'cals in Aces High can hit upwards of 800 yards?

Yes, In AH2 though, gunnery is more realistic.  I have not seen many 800 yard shots from wing mounted weapons.  Inline mounted it is entirely possible provided you have perfect conditions.  I shot down a Spit extending in a 109F at D800.  He had hit auto-level.

Crumpp

[Raptor]

I BnZed simply because there was both a spit 9 and 5, then I noticed the spit5 outclimbed the 9. My statement was not whether or not a 109G2 can outclimb a spit or not. I want to know why is it that the slower spit5 can outclimb the faster spit9. Someone even made a comment (someone who was flying a spit and not a "luftwhiner") that the spit5 was overmodeled.

[Wotan]

Furball, B-n-Z is not all therr is to Energy Fighting. B-n-Z is just a form of of it.

Here's an example from Shaw

"Actual combat accounts of the successful use of energy tactics are rather rare, but the following example is a beauty. Here John Godfrey's P-51B Mustang has probably 20 percent lower wing loading than the German Focke-Wulf 190D-9 opponent, and Godfrey increases his turn advantage further by skill full use of flaps. The Focke-Wulf, however, may have 20 percent better power loading. Here are two masters at work:"

From page 163

Figher Combat

"...Around and around we went. Sometimes the FW got in close, and other times, when I'd drop my flaps to tighten my turn, I was in a position to fire; but the German, sensing my superior position, kept swinging down in his turn, gaining speed and quickly pulling up, and with the advantage in height he would then pour down on my tail..."

Read what I wrote above in regards to the 109.

Timid bore and ZZZZ'rs isn't what I am talking about at all.

[Wotan]

Originally posted by Raptor01
I BnZed simply because there was both a spit 9 and 5, then I noticed the spit5 outclimbed the 9. My statement was not whether or not a 109G2 can outclimb a spit or not. I want to know why is it that the slower spit5 can outclimb the faster spit9. Someone even made a comment (someone who was flying a spit and not a "luftwhiner") that the spit5 was overmodeled.

You are slowly changing the tone of your original post. Unless you provide film of the sortie none of us can help you.

"Outclimb" doesnt mean much as the amount separation you will gain is but a few hundred yards over thousands of feet.  Simply going vertical wont take advantage of the 109s climb speed at a given angle. There are so many variables to consider with in your orignal post and now that you seem to be changing it even more.

With out film there's no way any one can help you or analyze the what happened.

That's why you should film every sortie. Not only can you review what you did wrong but what the other guy did right.

If your post is simply "I think the spits are over modelled" or "I think this guy was cheating" you will have an even harder time trying convince folks with out that film.

If you are B-n-Z'ing in a 109 then you flying incorrectly to begin with. I would venture a guess that you had gondolas as well. Which affect climbrate, turn rate, roll rate and top speed.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Wotan
Furball, B-n-Z is not all therr is to Energy Fighting. B-n-Z is just a form of of it.

Here's an example from Shaw


"Actual combat accounts of the successful use of energy tactics are rather rare, but the following example is a beauty. Here John Godfrey's P-51B Mustang has probably 20 percent lower wing loading than the German Focke-Wulf 190D-9 opponent, and Godfrey increases his turn advantage further by skill full use of flaps. The Focke-Wulf, however, may have 20 percent better power loading. Here are two masters at work:"

 
.

Mind if I just change the subject for one quick question?

That quote regarding John Godfrey in a B model Mustang vs a D9.  Does it mention when it took place?  

Hohun and I have gone around a bit on when the D9 showed up as there are a number  of Allied pilot reports of 'long noses' starting in the Spring of 44 but it sounds like they didn't reach operational service until the Fall of 44.

Was there a time frame on the Godfrey quote?  I'd have thought he'd have been in a D model Mustang by mid summer 44.

Dan/Slack

[MiloMorai]

Dan, III./JG54 received 18 new D-9s in Sept 44. http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html

Could it be a test Dora that the P-51 ran into?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Dan, III./JG54 received 18 new D-9s in Sept 44. http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html

Could it be a test Dora that the P-51 ran into?

That was one of the suggestions previously.  In John Foreman's book "Over the Beaches"  He refers to an engagement on June 8, 1944 where the 56th FG ran into D9s, and then June 20th when P38s of the 370th FG ran into D9s.

The original discussion ran out of the debate about John Lowell's supposed fight between him and Galland in a D9 which would have had to have happened no later then July since Lowell transitioned to 51s after that.

But it seems clear that the September date for the JG54 birds is the correct one which of course negates the previous claims of D9 encounters.  It's just interesting that pilots were making kill claims on D9s that apparently weren't in service yet.

Dan/Slack

[Crumpp]

From reading various tactical trials I get the impression that Allied intelligence knew about the Dora long before it entered service.  When the P51B and Spit XIV prototype where test flown against a FW-190A4 in the winter of 43/44 the allies were estimating the FW-190D's performance.

With so much speculation on the part of the Allies it is no wonder pilots were seeing "Ghosts".

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

From reading various tactical trials I get the impression that Allied intelligence knew about the Dora long before it entered service.  When the P51B and Spit XIV prototype were test flown against an FW-190A4, in the winter of 43/44, the allies were estimating the FW-190D's performance during the trials.

With so much speculation on the part of the Allies it is no wonder pilots were seeing "Ghosts".

Crumpp

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Wotan
You are slowly changing the tone of your original post. Unless you provide film of the sortie none of us can help you.

"Outclimb" doesnt mean much as the amount separation you will gain is but a few hundred yards over thousands of feet.  Simply going vertical wont take advantage of the 109s climb speed at a given angle. There are so many variables to consider with in your orignal post and now that you seem to be changing it even more.

With out film there's no way any one can help you or analyze the what happened.

That's why you should film every sortie. Not only can you review what you did wrong but what the other guy did right.

If your post is simply "I think the spits are over modelled" or "I think this guy was cheating" you will have an even harder time trying convince folks with out that film.

If you are B-n-Z'ing in a 109 then you flying incorrectly to begin with. I would venture a guess that you had gondolas as well. Which affect climbrate, turn rate, roll rate and top speed.

I see what your saying about needing to film. MY main question is... how did a spitV compare to the spitIX we have in a vertical climb.
No I did not have gondolas, and not saying the spit outclimbed me. It kind of appears (to me) you assumed that I got shot down and began to whine about it. I wasnt shot down, just noted the climbing difference.

guess I better just rephrase and ask could a SpitV vertically outclimb the SpitIX in a co-e state

[United]

I havent read the entire post, so it may have already been said but here goes:

The spit5 has very good stability at slow speeds, therefore it can hang on its nose for quite a while.  The spit9 in AHII is pretty much a spit5 but with a little more power.

A hurricane can hang on its nose until it reaches 0 mph.  I can keep a hurricane pointed upwards until it starts falling backwards.  The hurr has something about it that helps it retain E very well.

109s have horrible E retention, and are not my ideal plane for a rope.

Of course, the spits could have just come out of a dive.  You never know without a film.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Raptor01


guess I better just rephrase and ask could a SpitV vertically outclimb the SpitIX in a co-e state

Rate of climb of a Spit Vb was4,750 feet per minute.

Rate of climb of a Spit IX was 4100 feet per minute.

You have to remember that the IX had the two stage supercharger which gave it better performance at altitude and had a higher service ceiling then the V.  But it was also heavier then the V.

Dan/Slack