Author Topic: While reading "Unfit for Command"  (Read 837 times)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2004, 06:29:00 PM »
Well, Jim Rassmann (the guy Kerry pulled out of the water) said that he was taking fire everytime he came up for a breath.  He says that these "Swiftboat Vets for Truth" guys are lying through their teeth.

Mr. Rassmann is a Republican.

Which Republican is lying?


Now, in the case of most people on this BB the answer is simple, it is whichever answer will demonize the opposition the most.

That is a grossly dishonest way of thinking.

Maybe you don't like Kerry.  There are plenty of valid reasons not to.  However, demonizing the opposition is destructive to the nation and to your own ability rationally think about the problems and solutions we are faced with.


My personal take, from what I have read and seen so far, is that Kerry is telling the truth about what happened and Bush is telling the truth about his service in the National Guard.

Neither of those things seems relevant to me at this time.
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Offline anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2004, 08:01:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Anonimous and AWMac, you guys want to handle this ? :D


no doubt theres some less than stellar Os in usn. i was fortunate worked in a community where almost no tolerance for anything but highest quality Os. ive never been one to get riled up over four months of kerrys life in vn. he sure wasnt another jfk but thats no crime. what i find damning is his conduct when testify before senate and his conduct as senator when he joined in the dogpile to cut our intel guys of at the knees.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2004, 08:14:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
So Thurlow is trying to say that he NEVER EVER read his own Bronze Star action report?

Come on guys! This is so comical it's sad.


actually I just heard him LIVE say that the first time he read it was when it was actually presented to him ten years after the action.

This citation was written by somone who was no were near were this action took place

The after action report wich the citation is based on was written by John Kerry himself.

All I'm doing is connecting the dots.

50 people who said they were actually there say kerry's boat fled and there was no enemy fire.

The guy that wrote the book john O'neil just said live on TV that he is not connected to the republican party at all and that if John Kerry were a Republican he'd be saying the same thing.  He also said that if George Bush himself called him up and said stop the kerry adds he'd refuse.

Bush allready has called for ALL 527 adds to stop.

Wow lets demonize a bunch of vets who have a legitimate story about a presidential canidate.

Ok i'm done you librals and put your heads back in the sand now.

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2004, 09:09:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Pyro says no hijacking


He also says keep sigs to three lines...

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2004, 09:39:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samiam
He also says keep sigs to three lines...


You're hijacking again
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2004, 10:58:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
actually I just heard him LIVE say that the first time he read it was when it was actually presented to him ten years after the action.

OK...so he is saying that the Bronze Star that was approved 6/20/69, 3 months after the action, was not presented to him until 1979?  Oooo...it is gettn real deep in here.

Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
The after action report wich the citation is based on was written by John Kerry himself.

And since Thurlow was the senior officer leading the 5 boat flotilla that day he would have had to have reviewed and approved the after action report.

Seriously...if these guys were not under fire then, why the Bronze Star "V"?  Is it considered combat heroism to leisurely bring your boat around to pick up a bunch of guys just sitting in the water waiting to get picked up?  No rush...no danger...just cruise up and pull them on board.  Why would Thurlow say he thinks that he deserves a Bronze Star "V" for simply picking these guys out of the water?  How would that kind of action qualify for a Bronze Star "V"?  He does not deny that he thinks he deserves the medal, eventhough he wouldn't qualify given the circumstances the way he remembers them 35 years later.

Offline Gyro/T69

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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2004, 11:37:23 PM »
Swiftboat Veterans for Truth
Press Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, August 19 2004 @ 09:00 AM PDT

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=Releases

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2004, 11:40:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
OK...so he is saying that the Bronze Star that was approved 6/20/69, 3 months after the action, was not presented to him until 1979?  Oooo...it is gettn real deep in here.

 
And since Thurlow was the senior officer leading the 5 boat flotilla that day he would have had to have reviewed and approved the after action report.

Seriously...if these guys were not under fire then, why the Bronze Star "V"?  Is it considered combat heroism to leisurely bring your boat around to pick up a bunch of guys just sitting in the water waiting to get picked up?  No rush...no danger...just cruise up and pull them on board.  Why would Thurlow say he thinks that he deserves a Bronze Star "V" for simply picking these guys out of the water?  How would that kind of action qualify for a Bronze Star "V"?  He does not deny that he thinks he deserves the medal, eventhough he wouldn't qualify given the circumstances the way he remembers them 35 years later.


sorry crow I misquoted him.  I thaught I heard him say 10 years....but I know I heard him say out of the military.

Offline cars

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2004, 05:04:22 AM »
coolridr wrote,

Better yet who cares..Vietnam is soooooo 2 generations ago....nothing that happened there has any bering whatsoever on the modern world...even our military isn't run the same..so what does Vietnam experience have to do with anything?

   Viet Nam is not two generations ago for everyone. It seems like just this morning that I woke up strapped to a stretcher as the c-141 medevac bird touched down in Japan. They said I was going home, that the war was over for me. They lied, it followed me home and I deal with it the best I can every day and every night. Everything is a reminder, from the presidential campaign to the current action in Iraq. I'm glad its ancient history to you but for some it acts as a filter for the present to help put things in the proper perspective.

cars

Offline Eagler

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nuff said...
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2004, 05:41:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gyro/T69
Swiftboat Veterans for Truth
Press Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, August 19 2004 @ 09:00 AM PDT

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=Releases
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2004, 05:42:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cars
coolridr wrote,

Better yet who cares..Vietnam is soooooo 2 generations ago....nothing that happened there has any bering whatsoever on the modern world...even our military isn't run the same..so what does Vietnam experience have to do with anything?

   Viet Nam is not two generations ago for everyone. It seems like just this morning that I woke up strapped to a stretcher as the c-141 medevac bird touched down in Japan. They said I was going home, that the war was over for me. They lied, it followed me home and I deal with it the best I can every day and every night. Everything is a reminder, from the presidential campaign to the current action in Iraq. I'm glad its ancient history to you but for some it acts as a filter for the present to help put things in the proper perspective.

cars


cars and thank you
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Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2004, 05:57:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cars
coolridr wrote,

Better yet who cares..Vietnam is soooooo 2 generations ago....nothing that happened there has any bering whatsoever on the modern world...even our military isn't run the same..so what does Vietnam experience have to do with anything?

   Viet Nam is not two generations ago for everyone. It seems like just this morning that I woke up strapped to a stretcher as the c-141 medevac bird touched down in Japan. They said I was going home, that the war was over for me. They lied, it followed me home and I deal with it the best I can every day and every night. Everything is a reminder, from the presidential campaign to the current action in Iraq. I'm glad its ancient history to you but for some it acts as a filter for the present to help put things in the proper perspective.

cars


I was not meaning any disrespect/ or trying to downplay the seriousness of the experience for any true vets of that war. Their are many in my family who live with the same things you talk about. I was just saying how utterly rediculous it is to be using that war the way it's being used "Hey look at me, I'm a war hero from the 4 months I spent in a war we lost " . This canidate needs to talk about the issues at hand. I don't think I've heard anything about what his policies will be. Right now all he can do is try to defend agains attacks against his war record.

By the way. I have the utmost respect for the veterans from that war. Your experience has helped to make sure the younger generations don't experience the same sort of hands tied losing battle scenario. (Of course there are some on this board that say Iraq is)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 05:59:42 AM by Coolridr »

Offline cars

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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2004, 06:20:22 AM »
coolridr:

"I was just saying how utterly rediculous it is to be using that war the way it's being used"

When you word it like this, we're in complete agreement, I guess my reading comprehension could use some help.  



cars

 Kinda strange irony, talking about how VN is literally still today for me. Sitting here waiting to go to the VA hospital again today :(
(edited to add the irony.)


Eagler
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 06:26:16 AM by cars »

Offline wrag

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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2004, 07:18:43 AM »
A medal can take awhile to get to the recipeint.

Seems a guy in WWI didn't receive his CMH until well after the war was over.  Interesting story BTW seems he was a Mexican National that enlisted in order to get U.S. citizenship.  Still couldn't speak much English and had started rasing a family here in America.  It's reported several people thought he was in some kinda trouble when the government types came looking for him and wouldn't talk until they were told the real reason.

Seems he fought extremely well and managed to carry and or drag several of his wounded comrades to safety.

As to this

coolridr wrote,

Better yet who cares..Vietnam is soooooo 2 generations ago....nothing that happened there has any bering whatsoever on the modern world...even our military isn't run the same..so what does Vietnam experience have to do with anything?

As another that was there and carries around memories of it I care very much.  I've noticed many of what I consider to be flippant answers or statements that seemingly lack considered thought here on this BBS.  I've also noticed several after the fact appoligizes.  At least some have the manners and maturity to own up! To those .   And a <<>> to those that think about stuff like that before they type :)
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2004, 07:48:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gyro/T69
I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

The BS meter just burried the needle.

He is saying that after an action where a significant peice of US governement property was severly damaged, where men were injured requiring treatment, that he as senior officer and lead for the day did not write nor review/approve an after action report.

Sorry...the stench is getting a bit much.