Carriers

[SlapShot]

Hello, earth to furballers, come in furballers! You can have all the fun you want, but if that fun leaves your CV in danger, then you don't have anyone to blame but yourselves.

And you certainly should not request for a system change to do the job for you.

I think you need another cup of coffee.

How did this get "furball" centric and its the "furballers" fault.

Total BS ... From what I have read in this thread and the other one, it appears to be quite the mixture of those that would like to see some changes in the CV attack groups.

Having the CV hang around longer benefits both the furballer and strat guys who are going for the capture.

[Fauxbra]

Real Carriers always had a high cap and many heavily gunned support ships to defend them. It is tough to defend against some guy who makes it his mission to take out CV and ups a formation of Lancs from 2 sectors out and comes in at 15K. Maybe the CV could have a spawn point at 10K directly above it for clean fighters only...seeing as how in real life there would be a constant cap over it.

[Kweassa]

How did this get "furball" centric and its the "furballers" fault.

Total BS ... From what I have read in this thread and the other one, it appears to be quite the mixture of those that would like to see some changes in the CV attack groups.

 I shi* you not. No matter how many discussions revolve around the CV, it's always essentially about the samething. It's a very simple logic.

* A group of people(a) want the CV dead
* Another group of people(b) want the CV alive
* a), will do anything to take the CV down.
* b) wants the CV alive
* if b) wants the CV alive, then b) must protect the CV
* in the MA, b) rarely commit themselves to the most effective means of protection - CAP.
* Result: CV dies a lot.
* Reaction: People come to the BBS and complain the CV needs to be fixed

 There is no 'mixture' of reasons whatsoever. It's wordgame for people who try to hide the undisputable main issue here - 90% of the cases where a CV goes down in MA, is because of lack of protection. Barely a handful of cases are due to "unstoppable dweebery" such as endlessly respawning PTs, multiple suicidal buff formations, multiple bogeys who are determined to strafe a CV dead.. and etc etc.

 There are few factors which may influence just how exactly the CV gets sunk in what process, but the fundamentals are rock-solid. People don't do squat about protecting the CV. They leave it to be sunk, and that's why it gets sunk.

Having the CV hang around longer benefits both the furballer and strat guys who are going for the capture.

 That part's good.

 The real difference is when a large urball brews around a CV. The sort of furball where it becomes clear that our meager CV-based planes are being pushed back, and numbers of 'red dots' increase in the dar screen.

 This situation is like stormclouds on the horizon.

  The way 'strat' guys figure it, is if the CV can safely retreat for a while, regroup, and come back when the danger level drops - then the CV will survive, and won't have to respawn to do a four-hour cruise to the frontline all over again.

 The way 'furball' guys figure, that they don't wanna missout on the fun. They keep the CV there, and yet not a single of them flies high CAP. BAM! the CV goes down, and they start blame the enemy for being a 'party pooper', and blame the system for making such a 'weak CV'.

Real Carriers always had a high cap and many heavily gunned support ships to defend them. It is tough to defend against some guy who makes it his mission to take out CV and ups a formation of Lancs from 2 sectors out and comes in at 15K.

 Your picture of 'defense' shows the lack of understanding in the concept of CAP.

Maybe the CV could have a spawn point at 10K directly above it for clean fighters only...seeing as how in real life there would be a constant cap over it.

 Maybe the pilot can get up and patrol the area at high alts in a potentially dangerous area, instead of fool around at low alts and then wish for an instant spawn to redeem the mistake of not setting up a proper CAP in the first place.

 Constant CAP is a job we must do, not something the system can do for us. It's no fun. It's boring. But it's vital.  


 .............

 There are a zillion things we can do to keep the CV alive.

* Try flying regular CAP duties. Find a friend nearby, and convince him to fly at least few sorties at high alts with you - giving up all the fun brawl at low alts.

* Ask others in the area to take turns with you to fly CAP.

* Actively search out the potential bases where the enemy might up buffs, and destroy its ordnance capacity befor e they launch jabos/buffs - instead of waiting around.

* Try to position the CV in a spot where  enemy activity is predictable - one thing an 'admiral' must never do, is drive a CV into a waterway surrounded by 3~4 enemy bases within 25mile radius.

* Use proper discretion, and retreat the CV if the situation starts to get out of hand.

 
 Do all of the things above - and then, if  for some reason we still lose the CV, then those reasons are the factors that should be adressed/removed/fixed etc etc. in the game. And as of now, I only see a handful of those factors which need real correction - and none of them, has to do with CV toughness.

[mars01]

Kweassa you make it sound like no one flys high cap ever and that is just plain wrong.  Guys man the gunns, guys fly high cap and still within 5 mins the thing is dead.

The carriers are very easy to kill no matter what you currently put up to defend it.

This is not some cut and dry Furball VS Strat issue.  I have flown high cap.  If I kill the high bomber I still get some mid alt Dive bobmbing Level Bomber that whacks the carrier.  So then nope not gonna waste time doing a high cap.

Give me something that I can defend and I will.

* if b) wants the CV alive, then b) must protect the CV
* in the MA, b) rarely commit themselves to the most effective means of protection - CAP.
* Result: CV dies a lot.
* Reaction: People come to the BBS and complain the CV needs to be fixed

This is where I think you are wrong.  Putting up a cap does not make the CV last that much if any longer.  Your whole assumption that no one CAPs is incorrect.  I think CVs are too soft so no matter what kind of cap you put up it's going to go down fast because it takes so little to kill.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by mars01
This is a perfect example of CVs being too soft.  1 guy should never be able to take down a CV.  It should take a consorted effort to kill these things.  They should be hard enough where one guy wouldn't even think of trying to take a CV alone.

Some times there are not enough people on to defend every outpost in this game.  That is one difference between AH and real life.

i didnt say one sortie did i?

it takes about 3 P47/p38 loads, and if theres a long gap between drops it takes even more as the ship magicaly repairs itself while at sea!!

[mars01]

i didnt say one sortie did i?

it takes about 3 P47/p38 loads, and if theres a long gap between drops it takes even more as the ship magicaly repairs itself while at sea!!  

Neither did I, did I? lol

Still three sorties in a 38 should not be able to drop a carrier.  Like I said carriers should be hard enough that some one wouldn't and couldn't kill a CV alone.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by mars01
OK Kweassa you have had some good points but now you are just spouting off. This is BS, common excuse when people don't like suggestions they have read.  The bottom line is the fight at the CVs dont last long enough to justify having CVs because some one easily and quickly kills them before any decent fight can start.  When three CVs are sunk in less than half an hour something is out of whack.  

 

you know what, i think those 3cvs are the ones we, bish sunk. I sank a cv and a cruiser from them a couple of days ago.

you know why? because there was about 20 guys on them, some dive bombers, some torp bombers, and some bombers + escorts, while not ONE of them lazy rooks botherd to up to defend them (the ones that got shot down never came back).

rooks took 3 cvs somewhere, right near a bish base and didnt want us to stink them?!

[Kweassa]

Kweassa you make it sound like no one flys high cap ever and that is just plain wrong. Guys man the gunns, guys fly high cap and still within 5 mins the thing is dead.

 No one flies high CAP mars. Some people may waltz around the enemy bases that is under attack from our CV at medium alts, pick off a few stupid jabos/buffs that up from that very field and try to make it to the CV, and call that "CAP". But that's not CAP.

 An enemy plane that reaches the CV over 15k alt with a heavy bomb load, means it took off from another base at least 20 miles away - these guys can be picked off by watching dar bar. If there's a small dar reading at a base near the CV within 25 miles, that means a jabo or a buff has taken off. It can be predicted, and shot down.

 If, multiple of those such bogeys come in at once, it means the enemy has organized themselves - which if the CV gets sunk basically means the enemy earned that kill. To stop something like that you need a lot of CAP fighters working in coordination. It's hard to expect in the MA, yes. But it's possible - even with individuals.

 The only times a "thing" dies, is;

a) when the CV planes get pushed back from a beachfront furball and loses airsuperiority over the CV..

b) when the enemy launches a damned multiple suicidal buff mission at low alts

c) when the enemy ups planes like Nikis or 110s and purposely go strafing it to die

d) when a high jabo/buff reaches the CV unchallenged continuously

 Of the four reasons, b) and c) should be addressed. But strengthening the CV is not the answer. Nor is b) and c) a common thing to take place. It is always a) and d) which brings down the CV, and a) and d), is what we can do something about, which nobody does anything about.

 

This is not some cut and dry Furball VS Strat issue. I have flown high cap. If I kill the high bomber I still get some mid alt Dive bobmbing Level Bomber that whacks the carrier. So then nope not gonna waste time doing a high cap.

 I understand the frustration. I've experienced much same stuff. Except, when I get frustrated about it, I get frustrated about the rest of the pilots nearby who don't fly CAP with me - not at the buffs, or the 'weakness' of the CV.

 

I think CVs are too soft so no matter what kind of cap you put up it's going to go down fast because it takes so little to kill.

 So, what's it gonna be? The CV is already 8000lbs tough. How much tougher does it have to become to satisfy you? Until no jabo or buff can harm it in anyway? Until the enemy has to put up 10~20 planes at the same tme to kill it?

[Overlag]

Originally posted by mars01
Neither did I, did I? lol

Still three sorties in a 38 should not be able to drop a carrier.  Like I said carriers should be hard enough that some one wouldn't and couldn't kill a CV alone.

in real life, a lucky 1000lbs could kill a carrier.

in here its 8000lbs (i think) so its not THAT bad

ive seen cvs float outside bases for HOURS on end, i dont know why your cvs keep sinking in 5minutes

[mars01]

Honestly I also find it very rare that a high alt bomber drops the carrier.  It is easy to avoid the high alt drops.  It is the low to med level Dive Bombing Level Bombers that end up killing the CVs.

So, what's it gonna be? The CV is already 8000lbs tough. How much tougher does it have to become to satisfy you? Until no jabo or buff can harm it in anyway? Until the enemy has to put up 10~20 planes at the same tme to kill it?

I agree there needs to be a balance...

(See original thread:
There is a balance here though, we dont want to make a huge ack hugging circle for enemy planes and we don't want to make carriers invincible. Currently though they go down so fast, it would get Hugh Grahm off.)

and I think discussions on the BBs are a good way to brainstorm and come up with some good ideas to make CV battles more fun for both sides.

I think there is a lot of room for improvement tho.

[mars01]

The three dead carriers in a half hour, I think were rooks killed by Our country the Knights this past Wed.

in real life, a lucky 1000lbs could kill a carrier.

See all other quotes.  Who cares about "In Real Life" it does not apply here.

ive seen cvs float outside bases for HOURS on end, i dont know why your cvs keep sinking in 5minutes

I have never seen a carrier last that long, I wish I have seen that, but I'm sure you have seen carriers go down in 5  mins and more then a few times.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by mars01


 See all other quotes.  Who cares about "In Real Life" it does not apply here.

 

you may not think so, but i do.

[SlapShot]

I shi* you not. No matter how many discussions revolve around the CV, it's always essentially about the samething. It's a very simple logic.

* A group of people(a) want the CV dead
* Another group of people(b) want the CV alive
* a), will do anything to take the CV down.
* b) wants the CV alive
* if b) wants the CV alive, then b) must protect the CV
* in the MA, b) rarely commit themselves to the most effective means of protection - CAP.
* Result: CV dies a lot.
* Reaction: People come to the BBS and complain the CV needs to be fixed

So how does all that above translate exclusively to "furball" ?

The way 'strat' guys figure it, is if the CV can safely retreat for a while, regroup, and come back when the danger level drops - then the CV will survive, and won't have to respawn to do a four-hour cruise to the frontline all over again.

The way 'furball' guys figure, that they don't wanna missout on the fun. They keep the CV there, and yet not a single of them flies high CAP. BAM! the CV goes down, and they start blame the enemy for being a 'party pooper', and blame the system for making such a 'weak CV'.

Your kidding right ? .... LOL

It been my experience that the "Lil' Admiralz" are more than not, the "strat" guys.

I have yet to see a down-in-wool furballer take control of a CV. They typically don't have the "rank" to take it and do what they want with it.

[mars01]

It's very hard to make it apply Overlag no matter how much you believe it.

1) You don't have people manning stations 24/7.

2) You don't even have all the real life stations to man.

3) The Fleet isn't even an 8th of a it's Real Life size.

4) The size of Real Life Oceans made it much harder to even find a task group and can not be compared to our maps.

5) In real life there would be constant fighter cover.

6) In real life you would have recon mssions routinely.

7) In real life you had qualified people driving these boats, not some score potato who has no idea what he is doing.

8) In real life you couldn't send limitless waves of planes against a carrier and sustain a War.

9) In real life there would usually be more than one carrier in a task group.

10) PT boats would not be able to launch unlimited torpedoes within seconds of getting killed.

11) In real life you would have Battleship task forces way out infront of the Carrier and smaller forces patroling the area around the CV.
on and on ...

give me 5 reasons why Real Life rules should apply.

[mars01]

Thats a great point Slap.

I know just about every time I have grabbed a CV, I back it away from the field and spawn points so we have a place to up from.  About the same time all the strat guys get pissed because they can't get LVTs close enough.  I would take the carrier in but the problem usually is that, these guys havn't even killed the VH, Ord or the City, but they need it in close.  Go figure.

Then some maroon takes the boat and drives it into the PT spawns, kills the carrier, the fight etc.

Personally if I take a boat, I will fly high cap so I can manuever for in comming bombers, there is nothing worse than a guy that takes command and goes flying off.  If you are going to lose sight give up command.  I wish that when people were out of range of the CV they lost command.