swifties say "we are not gop shills"

[midnight Target]

Demaw... I think you're making stuff up dude. Giap said they knew they would win as early as 1965...

The Americans sent advisers to each and every division in the South Vietnamese [army] before 1965. In 1965, they started to commit big forces. We discussed among ourselves in the Politburo whether at that point it was ... a limited war. We decided that it was already a limited war. We discussed it in the Politburo that with America bringing in gigantic forces was to carry out a new campaign, with the American forces committed, it was not good for America but it would be very hard for us to fight. The struggle would be very fierce but we already concluded that we would win the war. ...

And sue for peace after Tet? ... well sort of.

And [after Tet] the Americans had to back down and come to the negotiating table, because the war was not only moving into the cities, to dozens of cities and towns in South Vietnam, but also to the living rooms of Americans back home for some time. And that's why we could claim the achievement of the objective.

[lazs2]

I would agree with DMF.. they probly are not shills but they clearly don't want to see kerrie in the white house...

lazs

[Toad]

Mt, get A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam
by Lewis Sorely.

 Amazon Page

It will challenge what many have taken for granted about VN. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion after you've read it. BTW, it meticulously footnoted and documented.

[lazs2]

thanks toad... I'll get it.   I allways felt the war wasn't so much lost as walked away from.

lazs

[Toad]

Be warned. Sorely is a historian. This won't be Red Storm Rising by Clancy.

However, he lays out a very well documented case that certainly makes you question "what everybody knows" about VN.

[AKIron]

Ain't free speech grand?

[demaw1]

Midnight Target........

  I am not making anything up MT. Yes you showed 2 paragraphs that on the surface seems to prove your point. But 2 paragraphs from thousands upon thousands of words can never prove your point or mine. No country goes into war thinking they will lose.

  Did they come to the piece table because they were winning ? And the battle plan that was used to bring them to the table was kennedys plan.What if kennedy had lived and followed his plan,vietnam would not have lasted a year.

I just want to say this, I could prove everyword I said given the time, energy and need. But I dont have any of the three. I could prove that the 2 paragraphs say something different just by adding the rest of the interview.

Again this isnt Americas problem. It is so very sad so many Americans dont understand what our problem is. This 100,000s of thousands of protesters in n.y. , can be [but may not be] the beggining of the end for America.

 My generation including me were sissys, we took all the liberals threw at us, but look at the world around us,look at our kids,there attitude is harder, more menicing then we were. The protests will just get bigger and more violent, but will todays kids come home as we did and hang their heads? We better damn well hope so.

[midnight Target]

I'm saying the protesters saved lives. It's all about politics. Our politicians knew that it would be suicide (political) to push the war to a "victory". And we both know that such a "victory" would likely have caused many many more American as well as Viet Namese lives.

The voices at home caused the war to end earlier, saving lives. The strategic significance of VN has proven to be non-existant over the course of time. The dominos fell back upon themselves.

[Toad]

Saved lives? Really?

American lives maybe.

Statistics Of Vietnamese Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources*

First: Democide

Genocide: among other things, the killing of people by a government because of their indelible group membership (race, ethnicity, religion, language).

Politicide: the murder of any person or people by a government because of their politics or for political purposes.


Mass Murder: the indiscriminate killing of any person or people by a government.


Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.

Short Version:

Finally, I can calculate the overall democide of Vietnam in the post-Vietnam War period (lines 762 to 764). This amounts to 346,000 to 2,438,000 Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, probably about 1,040,000.

Long Version:

Considerable democide followed Hanoi's victory over South Vietnam in 1975. I show estimates of this or related information (lines 637 to 759), the first of which refer to re-education camps. To determine some range of deaths in these camps, I had to first establish their population. Estimates of this for various periods are shown in the table (line 638 to 668), and consolidated for 1975 to 1980, and 1981 to 1987 (lines 669 and 670). The reason for this periodization is that there were many more inmates during the earlier period and most important, this period was more deadly. Only one estimate of the number of deaths in the camps is available (line 672). Rather than accept this, however, I calculated the toll (line 673) based on an assumed death rate that for the early period was in deadliness closer to the Communist Chinese camps than the more lethal Soviet gulag.15 In the later period the annual toll is assumed about the same as for the later Chinese labor camps. The resulting range includes the one estimate (line 675) and I therefore accept it as final.

Next there are estimates (lines 679 to 683) of the number of forced laborers, including those forcibly deported to "new economic zones," from which consolidation (line 684) we can try to calculate the associated unnatural deaths. This I do (line 687), assuming a very low annual rate of .75 to 2 percent for the first six years and .5 percent thereafter. This also assumes that the zones were about a quarter to a third less deadly then the camps in the early period and half as deadly later.

Not all democide figures are indirect. Estimates are available on executions (lines 690 to 697), which I consolidate (line 698).

Then there are the boat people for whose deaths at sea Hanoi is responsible. Some of these Vietnamese were forced to flee, some fled out of terror and fear for their lives, some fled by virtue of unlivable conditions that the communists had created for them. To understand the drive to flee on the dangerous open ocean often in unseaworthy boats is to realize the deadly hazards they faced from the regime, as discussed in Death By Government. The table lists estimates of the number of Vietnamese boat people that fled or tried to flee (lines 702 to 711) and their consolidation (line 713). Estimates of the percent of these then dying at sea are also given and consolidated (lines 716 to 730), followed by death estimates (lines 733 to 748). The consolidation of these (749) gives us one overall range of deaths. I calculate another by applying the consolidated percentage mortality to the consolidated number fleeing (line 750). Neither of these totals especially commends itself. In the usual fashion, I therefore took the lowest low and highest high and averaged the two mid-values to get the final range (line 751).

How many of these deaths is the responsibility of the communist Vietnamese, that is, democide? Neither the extremes of "none" or "all" is reasonable. Surely those who were forced to face death at sea, or risked it out of mortal fear of the regime or because their lives and families had been irretrievably ruined by it, should be counted as democide (by analogy consider that if children fled their family in winter because they fear being killed or are brutally abused, and then die of exposure in the snow, the parents could be tried for murder). However, those boat people who left for non-vital reasons, such as for economic reasons, and died at sea should hardly be counted as democide. What the proportion is between the two types of refugees is unknown. I assume that those for which the regime must be held responsible could vary from one-third to two-thirds, most reasonably a half of them. Applying this to the number who fled yields a likely Vietnam democide of 250,000 boat people (line 753).

As calculated elsewhere in this book, the probable democide that Vietnam committed in Cambodia (line 756) and Laos (line 759) are listed in the table.

Finally, I can calculate the overall democide of Vietnam in the post-Vietnam War period (lines 762 to 764). This amounts to 346,000 to 2,438,000 Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, probably about 1,040,000.

Yeah. Saved lives. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by demaw1
They are going to vote in a wishie,washie, person as president, that thinks nothing of lying ,and has no character at all. ...

clinton is running for office again?? LOL

your above statement has become a resume requirement for the party of the jackarse

along with pointing both ways on an issue (promising everything to everyone and following through with almost none of it), calling the other side mean spirited & rich while claiming to be a "good ole boy - just like you all" (cept they pay there lawn services more than most of our annual salaries) trying the divide this nation further through polarization as it is their only platform - fear and hate of anyone not as wacked left as themselves...

LANDSLIDE BUSH!!!

[AKIron]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm saying the protesters saved lives. It's all about politics. Our politicians knew that it would be suicide (political) to push the war to a "victory". And we both know that such a "victory" would likely have caused many many more American as well as Viet Namese lives.

The voices at home caused the war to end earlier, saving lives. The strategic significance of VN has proven to be non-existant over the course of time. The dominos fell back upon themselves.

Have to disagree. "The voices at home" prolonged the war and ensured our withdrawal without victory. As Toad pointed out, they may be responsible for millions of deaths.

[Dead Man Flying]

My prediction proved true.

-- Todd/Leviathn