109F-4 vs. La7

[Tilt]

No Karnak I am not trying to imply anything I am just providing the data I have.

Seems to me that range for range and load for load the Spit IX has the edge in the wing loading department .

[thrila]

The listed weight of spit IX jumped out at me a bit.   It is incorrect by a large margin.   If that wieght is used for all the other calculations then all the figures on that page are very wrong.

The weight of a fully loaded spit without bombs is about the same as the la7.  It is around 7400lbs for the spit IX.

[Karnak]

Tilt,
When you say stuff like this:

Originally posted by Tilt
Note how the advantage swings between fully loaded and near empty weights.

I can take it no other way than you are trying to mislead people about where the La-7 stands.  I know you like the La-7, but that was a disingenious argument.  You're clear implication was that in a normal air-to-air combat meeting of the two the La-7 would have lower wingloading than the Spitfire Mk IX would and that for the Spitfire Mk IX to have lower wing loading it would need to be low on fuel.

[joeblogs]

Can anyone give me an actual historical example of P51s using their flaps in combat? How about the F6-f?

-blogs

Originally posted by Zazen13
On a similiar note, a P51D with good flap work can outturn any LGay7. Just ask Jozepi. In fact, the P51D can outturn just about anything but the 'pure' angles fighters in AHII.

Zazen

[Meyer]

3400kg for a G-2?

should be 3050/3100kg

And 1800hp???

[GScholz]

It's a ricer G-2. 300kg of decals, vinyls and alloy wheels + Turbo mod with wet shot Nitro as well for at least 1800hp at the crank. Gorgeous interior of course; all leather with magnesium panels and brushed aluminum trim, and a pair of dice hanging from the Revi. Wunderbaum is optional.

[Meyer]

LOL

[straffo]

Originally posted by GScholz
It's a ricer G-2. 300kg of decals, vinyls and alloy wheels + Turbo mod with wet shot Nitro as well for at least 1800hp at the crank. Gorgeous interior of course; all leather with magnesium panels and brushed aluminum trim, and a pair of dice hanging from the Revi. Wunderbaum is optional.

Didn't you forgot the 250kg of the meatball in the cockpit ?

[DoctorYO]

all 109's turn worse now..  infact the g10 vs stang matchup equal pilots my money is on the stang..  the 109's just dont turn like they used to in AH1 and will catch you by surprise..

(I use rudder in all turns in the 109 now to try to make up for its lack of turning ability.  hence slower speed and better turn radii.. seems to work better putting the slip ball not max but just on the end of the gauge..)

Now as stated in my other posts the new dweebfire is the LA7 it turns it accelerates and we all know its "ludicris" speed (dark helmut)

with a managed throttle it outturns anything but turn and burners..  silly aint it..  with little or no torque either.. weeeeeeeeeeee...............  all those horses under the hood with no torque.. I think its a error..


Phear the La7.....




DoctorYo

[leitwolf]

Originally posted by GScholz
It's a ricer G-2. 300kg of decals, vinyls and alloy wheels + Turbo mod with wet shot Nitro as well for at least 1800hp at the crank. Gorgeous interior of course; all leather with magnesium panels and brushed aluminum trim, and a pair of dice hanging from the Revi. Wunderbaum is optional.

LOL!
The pair of dice sold me.. must.. have.. that.. plane..

[joeblogs]

That's what I thought...

Originally posted by joeblogs
Can anyone give me an actual historical example of P51s using their flaps in combat? How about the F6-f?

-blogs

[bozon]

Originally posted by joeblogs
Can anyone give me an actual historical example of P51s using their flaps in combat? How about the F6-f?

I remember a P51(B?) pilot story about a turn fight vs 109G. It was on a mission to norway and he got caught in a circle fight with the 109 on the deck. After lowering one notch of flaps he slowly out turned the 109 and shot it down.
The flight back was on instruments through bad weather.

I spent 20 min looking for the webpage but couldn't find it. Does it ring any bells with anyone?

The pilot said they considered flap use in combat before, but were discoraged by their commanders who wanted them to keep fast and not risk the nasty stall of the P51.

Bozon

[Charon]

Can anyone give me an actual historical example of P51s using their flaps in combat? How about the F6-f?

I remember a couple of references in Eric Hammel's "Aces against Germany" where it was described. Generally the practice was to drop one notch of flaps to get good initial turn rate but to be careful not to keep them out for too long and kill too much airspeed, as i recall.

Charon

[Hack9]

Regarding use of flaps in combat in P51 Mustangs.

This is taken from a USAAF document circa June 1944; commentary on combat tactics in P51 by 1Lt. C. A. Vitali, 360th FS/356th FG:


"I find that the tightest turn ma be obtained in a pinch by putting the prop in very fine pitch with manual control if necessary, lowering about 10 degrees of flaps, and trimming the ship in the turn."

(used without permission)

Taken from: Aircraft of the Aces #31, VIII Fighter Command at War, 'Long Reach', compiled by Michael O'Leary, Osprey Publishing, 2000.

-Hack9

[Sable]

Here are a few examples of books where P-51 pilots talking about using flaps in a turnfight:

Bob Goebel "Mustang Ace" pg 199
Bud Anderson "To Fly and Fight" pg 8
Eric Hammel "Aces Against Germany" pg 154, pg 189, pg 211, pg 240 (all quotes from different pilots)

They were called combat flaps for a reason.