Author Topic: What happened to all the good fights?  (Read 1693 times)

Offline Redd

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2004, 06:41:24 PM »
Seeing this in PAC time also Mechanic , which used to be a good time for a fun fight.

totally overrun with 20K Bnzzzz cherrypicking hordes at the moment. Think it's a steamroller effect , the more that do it, the more that then up the same thing to try and counter it.
I come from a land downunder

Offline Flyboy

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2004, 06:41:46 PM »
sorry mechanic, but the furballs are there, i just had some exellent fights this week, real intance!

just keep looking for them, they are out there!

Offline Redd

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2004, 06:43:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2shad4u
well when your squad is on mechanic and i fly to a base that is 2k high and i fly to it 10k just to see them about 13k norm or so in their little spit5's just to be gangbanged by them............its annoying but i usually try and turnfight unless its more than one spit5....................is that all your squad is allowed to fly is spit5? they need more of a challenge:)



lol  2shad , I have run into some gang banging, vulching hordes lately too  .
I come from a land downunder

Offline Redd

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2004, 06:48:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop
Mechanic I agree completely, where have they gone ??
.

A catogory 5 furball
All the ingrediants were present and it took place. Saw many a furball addict there that night

For some reason water increases the chances

Numbers have to be even, sliding back and forth but staying for the most part even.



 



Water means CV's, CV's bring early/mid planes,   fun fights result .

The best possible fight around is 2 CV's going hell for leather.
I come from a land downunder

Offline Stang

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2004, 06:57:06 PM »
Bore and zoom fighting is making wide passes at a plane and extending for long periods until most of the time your opponent turns away or is jumped by someone else... then you dive back in and repeat.  This generally sucks on all levels.

E fighting is using the superior E state of your plane (you don't have to be in a "faster" plane) to dictate the fight as you want, pretty much making the other guy your ***** as you do whatever you want to him.  You can rope him, get above him, set up anything you want ang generally show him who's boss till you feel like putting him out of his misery.  Big difference between the two though.  E fighting is very aggressive, bore and zoom is the worst most boring gameplay possible.

Offline mechanic

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2004, 06:58:16 PM »
That exactly the response i was looking for Nopoop! excelent work!

 love the thesis. an exact rendition of my own favorite way to die in AH. The bit about screaming home on the deck missing plane and body parts, tracers whistling over the canopy is just the ticket!

perfect!

I WANT ONE!

and Redd, you summed it up in two lines.

 if i log on tonight and see another 190 or pony at 20k im going to cry.

 I mean, fair enough, im not asking them to come down and engage in a sustained turn fight with a TnB plane, but at least give me something to avoid instead of just chasing you for hour untill my fuel runs out in the vain hope that you might actually want to kill something before you grow a beard.

If i am missing the furballs then just email me when one is happening PLEASE :)

DJhayze21@hotmail.com
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Ack-Ack

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2004, 07:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
E fighting is using the superior E state of your plane (you don't have to be in a "faster" plane) to dictate the fight as you want, pretty much making the other guy your ***** as you do whatever you want to him.



You hit the nail on the head with that definition.



ack-ack
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Offline Redd

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2004, 07:31:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
so maybe its more realistic, but is it more fun to have this speed dominace the whole time??

am i crazy, or were the 50+ plane pile ups a shed load of fun?




Batfink


Give the CT a  try if you see a few logged on , not sure how it fits with your hours.

Icons and Dar are pretty close to or at MA settings


There's been some good fights in there.   - you can even fly the spit 9 with the cool RAAF skin  ;)
I come from a land downunder

Offline eagl

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2004, 08:15:32 PM »
The super furball is still alive and well, but sometimes you gotta look for it.

I just flew a fun sortie.  Well, it was partially fun.  I took off in a p-51D and went looking for a furball.  Instead, I found a med alt yak chasing a fellow rook, and so I dove down and cleared his 6, but failed to get in a killing shot on the yak.  Sooo... the yak and I went around and around for a long time.  The yak was trying to use energy tactics, but I know how to play that game too.  I maintained the offensive but couldn't get more than a ping or two.  A enemy tempest then got in a ping on me, so I dove out of this med alt fight down into the low furball to try to escape the 2v1, since the yak driver was good enough that there was no way I'd be able to take on both of them.  It was taking 100% of my attention fighting the yak and if I'd paid any attention to any other planes, he'd have gotten me very quickly.

To my suprise, the yak followed me down into the mess.

I cleared my 6 a bit, and then reversed and re-engaged the yak.  I forced him to overshoot at the merge by bleeding some energy, and gained a small nose position advantage but was at an energy disadvantage, meaning that the only way to get a quick shot would be to accept an HO.  I didn't want to do that, so I started working the yak's energy back down by pointing my nose to threaten but not pulling quite enough for the shot, and working my energy back up.  This took quite some time, and I began to notice more red icons nearby...  I figured I'd better try to finish this quick and took some high aspect (not HO) shots and got one or two more minor pings, but then SEjester blew through and took off my wing, ending the fight.

So...  There are still furballs but the tougher gunnery changes the fight dynamic.  I'm not a great shot by any stretch but you really gotta get a GOOD shot in when using mg instead of cannons otherwise the fight just drags on and on.  Against a skilled opponent like whoever was driving that yak, sooner or later some dude in a cannon-sled is going to blow through and end the fight before you find out who's gonna win.

I never did find out who was in the yak...  Ah well.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline RedTop

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2004, 09:19:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2shad4u
well when your squad is on mechanic and i fly to a base that is 2k high and i fly to it 10k just to see them about 13k norm or so in their little spit5's just to be gangbanged by them............its annoying but i usually try and turnfight unless its more than one spit5....................is that all your squad is allowed to fly is spit5? they need more of a challenge:)


We do need more of a challange...so stay away..and we'll get one.:rolleyes:
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline B17Skull12

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2004, 03:34:25 AM »
That style of gameplay completely died with AH1.  As mentioned above, speed is the name of the game.  The furball if one ever appears is going to be dominanted by the alt monkies and really fast planes (elgay7, 109G10, etc)  there is no question about it.  it tkaes more effort and skill to get a kill in a pre 1942 plane.  Also it might have something to do with fps, since it seems like almost everyone goes crazy when there fps get into the mid to low 20 and below.:confused:   Personally im lucky to see above 5 in combat.  and that is usually the time that i accutally end up getting a kill.
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Offline Cobra412

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2004, 04:18:58 AM »
I agree with Stang to an extent on his definition of BnZ versus E fighting.  In essence though when you BnZ you are E fighting it just depends on what level of aggressiveness your taking it to. Your categorizing BnZ due to players that fly with a lack of agressiveness. Therefore in the end you isolate BnZ in one genre and E Fighting in another when in reality they are one in the same.

Quote
E fighting is using the superior E state of your plane (you don't have to be in a "faster" plane) to dictate the fight as you want, pretty much making the other guy your ***** as you do whatever you want to him.  You can rope him, get above him, set up anything you want and generally show him who's boss till you feel like putting him out of his misery


In bold you can see you have basically described an agressive BnZ tactic using solid E management techniques.  E management  can be best described by looking at the rolling scissors fight (energy fighting in its purest form coupled with TnB).  In the rolling scissors fight you can be the best turner but any lack of E management and your good as gone. Is this not the same thing that could happen in a BnZ scenario?  Fail to retain enough energy so that you can regain potential energy and in the end do what to your BnZ fighting?  So are you not in effect E fighting when you are BnZ fighting?

BnZ is a form of E management fighting though no matter how you look at it.  Again it's just a matter of what level of agressiveness your taking your BnZ fighting to.  Your categorizing BnZ and E fighting when in the end you need good E management to be affective and the BnZ. The only difference is that in scenarios such as the rolling scissors your using E management to the extreme, a little less BnZ, and coupling it with TnB (angles fighting).  So in the end your actually using all forms of fighting(TnB, BnZ, and Energy Management) all in one type of fight, rolling scissors.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2004, 04:35:28 AM by Cobra412 »

Offline Kweassa

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2004, 04:29:57 AM »
Quote
Speed has become the dominant factor in what makes a good fighter. The gunnery change has made getting close to the target more important and speed both enables fast closure rats and the ability to gain separation in order to survive.

 In AH1 it was never clear why speed was such a big deal in WWII. In AH@, like WWII, speed is king.


 I agree with Karnak 100%

 The whole thing started when gunnery became more realistic... which neutralized the 'long range gunnery' aspect of AH as seen in AH1.

 Overall success rates of attack passes people make, have dropped down dramatically.

 Since it is so much harder to hit a plane(at least for the general public), now, people are required to get in closer to shoot down an enemy plane.

 Thus, in AH2, contrary to popular belief, there is actually a lot of maneuvering involved in a dogfight. The quality of fights are generally much higher in AH2 than AH1 IMO. Lot of fantatstic fights happen which you would never see in AH1, because you'd be shot down so early in AH1.

 The problem is, this means that it takes longer time to kill something in AH2. The overall risk you are exposed to, due to chasing a certain plane around, has greatly increased.

 So naturally, people start to prefer faster planes. This is totally in conjunction with the general logic of WW2 aircraft evolution - it is actually a much more realistic tendency than AH1.

 Since you can't just snipe planes at 600 yards anymore(at least, for most people ) being in a fast plane really counts now.

 In a fast plane, you can duke it out a bit, and still get away when the odds are bad - as long as you are fast enough to keep most of the slower planes further than just 400 distance marker, it is highly likely you'll return alive(even unscathed in some situations). In a fast plane, you can catch other fast planes running away, too.

 However, in a slow plane.. you can twist and turn all day long.. but you'll almost never get a kill anymore. Look at all those excellent Japanese pilots moving over to La-7s, Yaks and Typhoons!(this is true!).

 In AH1, being in a slow plane didn't matter as long as you flew smart. The unrealistic aspect of gunnery still rewarded you heftily. Just keep a little alt in a furball, and by the time you reach deck you are scoring 3~4 kills.

 But in AH2, the realistic gunnery dragged in the iron laws of realistic plane choices into gameplay. Fly smart or dumb or whatever you want - being in a slow plane, just doesn't pay anymore! Some renowned aces like Leviathan and co. still fly SpitVs. But for the general masses, the popularity of Spits and N1K2s are in a constant decline. (except the SpitV, which is still considered one of the best base-defense planes. In this role you don't necessarily have to kill much. All you have to do is survive long enough to buy time.)
 
 Like I said above, the dogfights of AH2, is actually much more exciting than AH1. But this also means it's much more harder. So, what do people do when they can't handle the dogfights? They rely on better planes.

 Voila - there you have it.

 The furballs of AH1 consisted of massive numbers of Spits and Nikis at low altitudes. At mid to high altitudes were the more faster fighters. It was a gigantic, chaotic all-out battle.

 The furballs of AH2, is now almost entirely made up of La-7s, P-51s, Typhoons, 190D-9s, 109G-10s. It is actually a rare thing to see a N1K or a Spitfires now. Today, during the 4 hour period of game playing at all fronts, I've seen total two N1K2s. Handful of base-defending SpitVs at low alts. All the rest I've seen are P-51s and La7s, Fw190D-9s.

  .....


 I think this is actually a good thing.

 The MA of late, is undeniably a total-late-war arena. Something resembling late '44~'45.
 
 This problem always existed even in AH1, but most people never actually felt it as a problem until now. Now, it is flaring up.


ps) (whispers) so.. support the NPA!

Offline Paul33

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2004, 04:33:19 AM »
I think you and I would get along quite well Mechanic...
:D

By the way NoPoop, I loved that piece of work on furballs :aok :D

Make way for Aces High philosophy!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2004, 04:39:52 AM by Paul33 »

Offline TexMurphy

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What happened to all the good fights?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2004, 07:44:27 AM »
Well its not strange that there arnt any big fights when things like what happened last night happen.

Bishops are hoarding at a base with virtually no fighting. When I ask why they all hang there the response is "To voulch".

I head over to another base which is under attack and has requested help. I come there and its launchable and the resistance is there but not kickin the enemy home. We needed just 3-5 more pilots to get the fight going big time. When I ask why people dont come and help out the response is "The base is beeing over ran".

There are never gonna be any good fights if people cant fight bad odds or organize them selfs to even them up.

Btw Im a rook now.

Tex